Money pit?

CC.Rob_2

Yes the boiler is way oversized, but what is the quality of the building envelope? Suggest that while you scope out new boiler and DHW options that you also get a good home energy audit, blower door test, etc. to help you prioritize envelope upgrades (additional insulation, new windows, general tightening and sealing, etc. etc.).

I've done a lot of work on an 1830 house. It's amazing what you can do to reduce heat loss in these grand old places by applying some modern techniques. And you might get lucky and find cool stuff in the walls. Among the more memorable we found was a "Grover Cleveland for President" button.

Josh_13

Money pit?

I live in the Chicago suburbs and I am looking to buy a farmhouse that was built in 1877. I was expecting somewhat reasonable gas bills, but January was $600. A big shocker was 4/1/06 to 5/10/06 was $315. There were two gas leaks found that were recently corrected by the gas company, but I was wondering if it is possible/probable that the boiler could be short cycling due to it's size?

Here are a few of the specks:
2700 sq house
2 levels
3" insulation
1999 (I do not recall brand) 280,000 btu hot water boiler
new windows and roof this summer

I thought about having a energy audit conducted on the home, but I doubt I could expect them to understand the boiler system.

Any thoughts would be helpful.

Thanks - Josh

Mark Hunt

That works out to


103.7 btus/hr of heat loss! (280k/2700 sqft.)

I would say your boiler is not grossly over-sized......it is FANTASTICALLY over-sized.

Get the energy audit. They should provide you with a heat loss calc.

You really need to think about replacing that boiler with one that is properly sized.

Mark H



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Spudwrench

Re; money pit

Josh,
I'm just a homeowner, but I have to say that that your boiler sounds WAY oversized for your square footage in Chicagoland. (I wonder if someone sized it to the radiation instead of the heat loss?) I heat about the same square footage frame house with no (and I do mean no) insulation with 2 under 70K btu boilers.
A 140K btu boiler would probably still be oversized! You need to do a "Manual J" heat loss calculation to determine what size boiler you need & have a pro install it. There are free heat loss calculations from the Slant Fin company and others...search online.
You might be able to mitigate short cycling by using a buffer tank, but your best bet is getting a properly sized boiler installed.

good luck,
Nathan

Norm Harvey

280,000BTU/Hr? What kind of snowmelt system do you have. I don't think I need to run some fuzzy numbers to figure that that is too big.

I'd recommend you go to heatload.com and plug in some numbers for your house and get a rough idea of what your heat loss is and start with getting a pro there to look over your entire heating system and provide a consultation.

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

What type of heat emitters?

Cast iron radiators?

Fin-tube baseboard?

Cast iron baseboard?

Unknown

Are you getting your domestic hot water heated by this boiler also? That might explain the high bill in May.

Keeping such a large boiler at a constant high temperature at all times will certainly run up your gas bill.

Josh_13

Mike(s):

Thanks very much for quick responses.

Cast iron radiators are used throughout the house.

I did forget to mention that the $600 heating bill for January was when the heat was down to 50 degrees (it was cold at showing). The house has been vacant since Spring '05.

Our inspector assumed that the people that owned the house in 1999 bought a small commercial/industrial steam boiler because it was cheaper up front than converting to forced air or hot water boiler. I was under the impression that a new residential sized boiler is a thing of the past?

The house does have a separate water heater. I assume the steam boiler is not used in the summer.

I think it is becoming pretty clear why they were so reluctant to hand over the gas bills

Thanks again,

Josh

Mad Dog_2

Yep...you could probably heat 2 other houses

your size with that beast. Whoever installed it didn't care....because he wasn't paying the bills. Mad Dog

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Spudwrench

oh, steam!

Josh,
Your first post referred to a "hot water boiler." Now, you're saying it's steam... whole different kettle of fish. A steam boiler should be sized to the radiation, not the heat loss of the house. (Which is not to say that the radiation is correctly sized for your house- that could be fixed by removing sections of radiators etc.)
For steam, you're probably going to need a pro.

Nathan

Dave_4

Is it hot water or steam? BIG difference as water and steam don't operate under the same rules.

On a small (individual home) scale steam will never be as efficient as the most efficient hot water systems, but a steam system in top-notch shape will likely rival (or even exceed) the efficiency of FAR too many hot water systems.

Unknown

where are you located?

I'm in west surburbs of Chicago...

Josh_13

Yeah, I somehow wrote that it was a hot water boiler in my first post. It is a STEAM boiler. Sorry for the confusion. Wow.

The house is located in West Chicago, IL.

I will give an update tomorrow on the review of an HVAC specialist that the seller is had out to take a look at the system.

Steamhead (in transit)

Josh, an \"HVAC specialist\"

may or may not know anything about steam. Why not take "rjbphd" up on his kind offer? He has everyone on The Wall behind him. It would be money well spent.

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Boilerpro_5

Give the Doc a call (rjphd)

I am also within driving distance and work with steam, but are further out. On a btu basis for that size home the boiler is huge. My home is about the same size, 2800 sq ft on two floors, built about 1906, with 700 sq ft of glass. My old hot water boiler was 270,000 input, 216 out. With the home now insulated, windows weatherstripped, etc. the heat load is under 50,000 btu/hr, so boiler output only needs to be about 50,000. For steam you may not be able to downsize the boiler always, but in many cases you can if the system is handled properly. I am sure lots can be done to improve those bills. I have other large old homes around that size with little insulation and 50 to 60 year old oil to gas converrted boilers that are running gas bills of only about $425.00 in mid winter and the home is kept at 70F all the time. My own topped out about 225.00 this winter for that nasty cold snap.

Boilerpro

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Unknown

hey Josh, guess what?

I'm located in West Chicago ! Is your home one of the Victornia in the historic area?

Norm Harvey

he gets my vote.

"rjbphd" = A first class PRO

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Rick_62

Hijacked again

I would never respond on a post like this, ever...

Josh_13

The home is off Arbor in West Chicago, so just outside the Historical district.

The seller of the house had their "heat specialist" come in and said the size of the steam boiler was to be expected for this house. We did call a few companies and they all disagreed with the seller's findings (as did you guys), so I think we are going to let the house go. They are not willing to listen to a 2nd opinion (which also concerns me).

Thank you to everyone who responded. This subject is clearly out of my element and I appreciate the advice.

One other question did come up related to steam or even hot water boilers in our search. From what I've read it seems that most posters are advocates of a boiler. Do you feel that it may be difficult to sell a home on a boiler system? Perception by the public? I understand there are A/C options such as high velocity systems, but these were questions we were at least thinking about.

Thanks again. Great website and service on this blog.