Vitodens 200 & power conditioning/surge protection

larry

A couple of years ago I did some power measurements on our Vitodens 8-32 using a simple cheap "kill-a-watt" meter.

Since the 8-32 has a variable speed circulator built-in, the numbers will no doubt vary from what I measured but it gives you an idea. The number also don't reflect the instantaneous power needed to startup the circulator or ignitor but reflect a steady state operation.

Vitodens State-------------------Power----------Power Factor

off (but not unplugged)------------7W---------------.44

DHW-on (in standby) Heat-off------22W-------------.49

DHW-on Heat-on (in standby)-----114W-------------.91

DHW-on Heat-on (call for heat)--144-154W----------.92

ADL

I have read various threads that mention power conditioning for Vitodens boilers while The Viessman installation literature does not make any mention of it.

Can anyone elaborate on the need for this and would a whole home surge protector such as the one offered by Sycom (www.sycomsurge.com) be sufficient protection for the boiler?

Ragu_5

ADL...

At the Viessmann Vitodens class, they strongly recommend that the boiler be directly plugged in to a Panamax #M4T-EX Power Conditioner. Viessmann also stocks these units, so that is what I used.

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Perry_3

Surge Protection

I am generally not a fan of whole house surge protection for two reasons:

1) Many surges can originate within the house - and a whole house protector may not protect you from that.

2) The most common surge protection technique that is sold is a cheap bandaid - that wears out and fails. Only unlike a bandaid that starts falling off.... you don't know that they are failing untill after it is too late.

I am a fan of individual circuit or point of use surge protection. This prevents devices from putting surges back into the system.

The surge protector that Viessmann recomends apparently has an added low voltage cut out which is very important in areas that have low voltage issues. However, the surge protection itself is based on "wear out" technology as is all the relatively cheap surge protectors on the market.

Thus, this model offers a feature that most surge protectors does not: Low voltage cutout. My glance at the Sycom site indicates that it does not have that feature.

If you want a surge protector that won't wear out and fail unexpectedly on you I suggest you check out:

www.brickwall.com

These are not cheap... which is why you will never see them in a store (not to mention that the cheaper surge protectors sell at a good profit margin - and few stores could sell these at that).

I have mounted a 20 amp circuit protector for my boiler circuit (and it comes in a 8" x 10" x 4" deep box - just for 20 amps). I will note that I do not have low voltage issues.

I also note that some high end (and expensive) voltage / current conditioning equipment has this type of circuit built in; others do not - but recommend that you use something like a Brickwall surge protector up front.

I will be looking at putting in a full sine wave output UPS with full power conditioning - that has enough battery capability to run my boiler for hours this year for the occasional power outage (it will cost $$$$ - most people do not understand how to properly size a UPS for equipment either).

Research what Brickwall teaches about surge protectors... Ask questions.

Then you can decide to either buy a cheap one that will go bad all by itself - and one that can fail without warning - or a real surge protector.

Note that the term "liftime warranty" has no legal meaning... The lifetime of what? Many people have been burned by these. A 5 or 50 year warranty does. That is saying that the item is actually supposed to last 5, 50, or whatever years. Ultimately - warranties are only as good as the company and companies do chose not to honor them (and some just go out of business, and reopen under a different name to avoid warranty liability).

Note: No surge protector will stop really very large surges - such as from nearby lightning strikes. For that you need a lighning arrestor. Most utility lines has these every so far on power circuits (this is why the power flickers off and on during a lighning storm - the lighning arrestor is grounding the entier circuit to route the vast majority of the lightning current to ground).

Hope that helps,

Perry

Gordon_3

UPS power

I'm going with a DC-to-AC inverter with automatic line-to-battery transfer and integrated charging system that serves as an extended run UPS. The more battery bank I add, the longer back-up I have in a power failure.
I need to calculate the electrical demand of my boiler, mixing valve, pumps...
I have the Vitodens WB2 8-32. The side of the unit reads "230 volts 60 Hz less than 12 amps". In the installation instructions it is rated @ 120 VAC 60 Hz 12 amps. I'm aware this is from the 120/230 VAC step-up transformer. I need to size my UPS (not my battery bank yet) so my question is, how much electricity does this unit really draw?
I have used this unit below for another application. I am concidering it or the next size up to back-up my boiler.
http://www.provantage.com/tripp-lite-aps1250~7TRPI01M.htm

Perry_3

One thing to know...

When you start chasing sizing a UPS: The standard UPS considers computers and electonics to be low load factor appliances (I think 70%). Pumps, fans, and solonoid valves have a 100% power factor - and you will get a too small one if you use the normal sizing criteria.

A UPS needs to be able to handle both peak load - and long term power draw.

If you boiler, pumps, valves. etc draw 12 Amps at 120V then you need a peak capacity of at least 1440 Watts.

For long term power draw, figure out your Watt Hour needs for how many hours you want it to run - and divide that by 70% to get the "Computer sized" UPS you need.

I assure you that you are not looking at a cheap UPS for anything beyond a few minutes of boiler operations. You are looking at units with attachable battery packs.

Perry

Constantin

FWIW,

I followed in Perry's footsteps for an installation in ME. A brick wall surge protector keeps the surges at bay, a 1000VA UPS from APC powers and conditions the power going into the Vitodens. Should all power fail, a genset outside comes on after a minute or two, more than enough time for the UPS to tide over the Vitodens, pumps, and Tekmar Zone controllers.

Steve Ebels_3

Another issue with power conditioners

This is a problem that I have seen on several Vitodens boilers. If you have an outage situation where the line voltage drops out instantly, the Vitodens will react as if the switch has been thrown to the off position and just come back on by itself when power is restored. Not a problem. The issue with the Vito is that when you have a low voltage or brownout condition, the Vito will keep on trying to run until the voltage is at a point where sufficient burner fan speed can no longer be maintained. When this happens you get a flame failure and the boiler will lock out as if there is an actual burner problem. It will not come back on without resetting the burner lockout switch.

If you're home when this happens it's no big deal. You just reset the burner switch when power is back on at full voltage. However, if your Vito is in a second home a couple hundred miles away or you are gone for a week it can become a very big deal in a hurry.

This is why Viessmann recommends the Panamax conditioner because it will cut the power supply to the boiler at around 90 volts input. This prevents the fan speed/burner lockout problem from occurring in the first place as well as providing typical surge suppression for over current conditions.

Gordon_3

UPS power

Perry,
Not sure if you were replying to my post. I was never considering a "computer sized UPS" I was having a hard time figuring out why my boiler would need 1440 watts. I'm assuming the majority of that power is for the ignition? Is this the case? Anyone? The UPS device I own for another application, and which I am considering for my boiler is coincidentelly rated for 1440 watts (or 1250 depending on config.)of continuous 120V AC power. It has a doubleboost feature which provides up to 200% of the continuous output for up to 10 seconds, and an overpower feature which delivers up to 150% of the continuous output for up to 1 hour. This UPS has no battery bank. I have to add my own depending on how many amp hours I want. Not cheap, this unit costs about $350.00 not including batteries, but I believe it will protect my Vitodens from any power failure, surge, or brown-outs, and allow me to run it as long as I wish without utility power depending on how much I want to spend on batteries.
Beside the cost, anyone see a problem with this?

Thanks
This is the unit:
http://www.provantage.com/tripp-lite-aps1250~7TRPI01M.htm

Brad White

One thing of note with a UPS

that came out of an earlier discussion with Perry is the use of a UPS:

It must not interfere with safety controls ....

Imagine the LWCO tripping the power for a good reason (Low Water). The UPS and associated battery/capacitor bank could keep your boiler running for 5-8 minutes. Even 30 seconds might defeat the purpose of the LWCO. In the end I opted for a Brickwall unit and no UPS. I could not figure out a neat way to effect the power conditioning function with the UPS so opted for straight surge protection.

Brickwall products are now our office specification default for protecting electronics.

Perry_3

LWCO on a Vitodens

Brad:

It turns out that their is no problem in general; but might be one in specific.

A LWCO can be wired to cut out only the burner circuit on a Vitodens which would allow the use of a UPS without affecting safety of the boiler

However; there is one exception. I do not have the wiring diagrams handy - but I belive that the same terminals are used for the connection to remote mount the control panel.

A dip switch on the circuit board controls what these connections are used for.

In my case with the RS control unit and the control panel at the boiler I can wire a LWCO.

Check the wiring diagram and the installation manuals for details of what remote accessory would preclude wiring a LWCO to only cut off the firing circuit.

Perry

Steve Ebels_3

Typically

We wire the LWCO, which IMHO is a totally useless and redundant device on a Vitodens, in a manner that kills the whole system if there should ever be a low water event. The simple reason is that if the thing is dry, I obviously don't want the burner to fire and neither do I want the circs running. We simply hardwire the LWCO in series between the power supply module and the boiler. No water, nothing runs.

Edit: We use the MM 120 volt LWCO, part # RB-122. Hydrolevel also has a new 120 volt unit that looks good and is easy to wire.

Brad White

That was my take also Steve

Nothing against what Perry was saying for I am sure it could be done. In the end it was too complicated with all else going on (light-off was November 3rd and it was 31 degrees outside). I opted for simple. As you said, Steve, no water, no juice.

Unknown

Viessmann Part Number??

Ragu,

Do you have a Viessmann part number. I cannot find this unit in there price book.

Thanks,

Steve

Gordon_3

Larry

I finally got a meter myself and checked the power usage also. I was just trying to figure out what size UPS I need to build. I had a hard time believing that the Vitodens actaully drew as much power as it is rated (12 amps/1400 watts). I first thought maybe it needed a lot of juice for the igniter but when I tested the usage the most it ever pulled was at fire-up in the indirect DHW mode and this was only 355 watts for a split second and then down to 280 watts @ 2.42 amps while the pumps (I have a second pump in line for the heat exchange) were still circulating. The question I still have is in what situation would the Vitodens be using 12 amps/1400 watts? Additional pumps?

Thanks for your input.

justme_3

Part Number

The Viessmann part number is 9560995

Uni R_3

2ndary pump...

What make/model is the secondary pump?

Gordon_3

The secondary DHW pump is the Grundfos type UPS 15-58 FC.

Uni R_3

Thanks... Lo, Med or Hi?

Gordon_3

The pump is set on high.