Homeowner tried pumping away...

edward goodridge

...and it was a big improvement. This was on an older three story house, radiators only, and a gas boiler dating to the 1950's. The house has diverter-T's for heating upstairs running off of two loops in the basement. I first used for pumping away the old Series 100 which totally overwhelmed the system. Then I tried a big globe valve after the circulator, to increase resistance, which didn't stop the fast water enough either, even closed as far as I dared. Finally I put in the much smaller B&G "22" and the system is now very quiet with plenty of heat on all floors! I left in the throttle valve, closed a half turn. System is set at 18 psi and it cycles on the limit switch at 130 F, which seems high enough for big radiators. The house is insulated, and we use storm windows. I suggest that if you are a home owner new to this get the book "Pumping Away" and follow it carefully. Read all postings at this site that apply to you. Do the pump curve math, I found it's easy to do those estimates and makes you feel like you're not just taking a guess at buying a circulator. This system has overhead piping in the basement that is 1-1/4" steel to and off the boiler, which is no fun to work with, and means going to get some pipe pieces cut and threaded. But going to a new, much smaller circulator should save on our electric bill, I'm sure, over time. Good luck on your project, if you do it yourself, as I did. Summer is coming, the best time to do it! Ed.

Ken_40

Ed, THANK YOU!

Thank you for the post and telling us about your experience.

One thing has me puzzled. You never stated for what reason you didn't like the S-100.

Given the extremely flat performance curve of the S-100, relatively lower "head" than the B&G 22, I have a feeling the restrictive valve was a step in the wrong direction.

What was it about the S-100 that you found to be "wrong"?

Ted_9

Temp.

Nice work. Post some pics.

One thing. Are you saying that you set the boiler high limit to 130 degrees? Even if you put in a boiler by-pass, this isn't a good idea. If you want to use lower temps I'd go to 160 degrees. Your right though, maybe the rads are large enough to heat the house at lower temps. If it was my job, there would be some kind of out door reset with boiler protection.

Massachusetts

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Long Beach Ed

Just to elaborate...

The 130 boiler temp may cause condensation on the boiler that will contribute to a rusty demise.

Most manufacturers recommend a higher temp.

Long Beach Ed

Steamhead (in transit)

I think he means

the 100 produced too much flow for that system. If he's getting a nice delta-T from the NRF-22 (similar curve to the Taco 005) then that's the right one to use.

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Uni R_3

\"the old Series 100 which totally overwhelmed the system\"

What do you mean overwhelm?

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't see any way you could overwhelm a diverter tee system with a pump that has a flat curve.

Steamhead (in transit)

I've seen it happen

on smaller systems. Even a flat curve can overwhelm a Monoflo system if the pump with the flat curve is too big. It all depends on what point on the curve you end up at. The proof is in the Δ-T.

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Uni R_3

What do you mean overwhelm?

I still have no clue what either of you mean by overwhelm.

Ted_9

Where???

Where is Edward Goodridge to answer these mind boggling questions?

Massachusetts

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Steamhead (in transit)

Over-pump

would probably be a better term. With over-pumping the delta-T drops and in extreme cases the water can't pick up heat in the boiler or shed it in the rads because it is moving so fast.

I've actually seen this happen, took me too long to figure out what was going on. So I wrote about it- "A Hot-Water Stumper" in Hot Tech Topics.

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[Deleted User]

I can't think of one case...

where someone tried pumping away and came away dissatisfied...

ME

Uni R_3

With a Series 100?

Okay for this overwhelming/overpumping to happen, it would mean that some kind of water film freaky physics thing needs to occur.

Do you believe that moving the location of a flat-curved Series 100 pump within the same system would cause this?

Dave Larsen_2

pump size

I think we need to know what pump did the system have to begin with? Remember guys, this is a homeowner we are speaking with. This may sound rediculous, but this pump isn't by any chance ADDED to your existing pump is it?

edward goodridge

Ken, thanks for replying, here's my response.

I had way too much flow from the 100. The 1-1/4" globe valve after the 100 I used to experiment with throttling. I had 3-1/2 turns to work with, full open to full closed. I went to two full turns closed without getting the velocity down far enough to stop the noise. The old Audel books and some B&G papers suggest throttling a 100 when velocity noise is a problem. Supposedly it is safe and it gave the circulator something to pump against, while stopping velocity noise. Didn't work for me. I had no interest in pushing my luck. If you are a homeowner and read this and want to try it, use extreme caution, too little flow is dangerous, extreme pressure/temperature can result to circulator or boiler!

edward goodridge

Thanks for your reply, here is my response.

Dear Long Beach Ed: I know this is a risk but I get plenty of heat this way. I know 160 is the rule. I'll think this over, maybe change my mind. Old boiler is less a concern to me than corroding the flu tiles, for sure.

edward goodridge

Thanks for your reply, here is my response.

Hi Ted-As a homeowner trying this DIY I decided to use what was in-place, and initially avoid spending too much even to save gas. You are right about the 160 rule. I am taking a chance at 130 limit, as others have pointed out, hope those flu tiles hold up! If we stay in this place long enough and I try the (dubious) pleasure of putting in a totally new installation I would include all the extras. I'd be foolish not to. However, by that time, I may know better and will hire a pro...

Ken_40

The connection between...

boiler water temperature as measured on the temperature gage on the boiler is interesting.

The actual flue gas temperature at the chimney connection quite another.

True, there is a relationship, but certainly not direct!

There are many ways to measure flue gas temperaure without spending a lot of money. They make oven thermometers that could be set on the flue pipe, magnetic stick-ons typically for wood stoves, there's the fuel company's test kit thermometer, even an aluminum pan directly on the flue pipe with water would get a rough 212F temp visually (steaming after ten minutes?) an old car temperature gage, etc.

If you wet your finger tips completely, drenching them in water and quickly "tap" the flue pipe and it sizzles and dissapears immediately, your well over 130F.

If you burn your fingers and end up in the emergency room with 3rd degree burns, just tell 'em some fruitcake from The Wall sent you.

edward goodridge

Thanks for reply, here is my response.

Hi Mark: I'm a home owner, lots of DIY, but first time at heating work. My pump-away system is now quiet, plenty of heat, all radiators upstairs, left shutoffs wide open. I am very happy now with pumping away!

edward goodridge

Thanks for response, here is my reply.

I can tell you that for three story house, all big radiators, with shutoffs wide open, the B&G "22" is very quiet and provides plenty of heat. Boiler is 155,000 net BTUH and I used 140-160 ft for longest loop.

edward goodridge

Thanks for your reply, here is my response.

Ted, I live in the Pittsburgh, PA area, southwest Pennsylvania, as you know. Ed

ALH_4

flow rates

I think I remember the original thread about this.

You cannot pump water through a radiator (or any emitter) so fast that it decreases the output. You can decrease the dT, but you increase the output because the average temperature increases.

However, you could pump through a boiler so fast it would not have time to heat the water up to the desired supply temperature. This would increase the time required to satisfy an on/off zone controlled by a thermostat.

It is obviously best to size the circulator appropriately for the system to function as planned.

edward goodridge

How do I post photos?

Ken: I'm the guy who went the DIY route, under the thread titled "homeowner on his own..." (3/3/07). I had a request for photos. They are on a CD. Tell me what to do next, as I'm not the smartest guy around on a computer! Thanks, Ed.

Ken_40

Here's how to post a photo.

First locate the photo you want to post, on your computer or CD. Get it into a photo file application editor(Camedia, Adobe, PhotoSmart, MS Picture viewer, etc.) and CHANGE the size to a maximum of 600 pixels wide. Save the edited (smaller) photo to a file name (and place) you can remember! Write the path down!

Come to The Wall. Open this thread. Go to this post and click on "reply."

Write a title and a brief narrative of what the photo shows.

Then go to the very bottom/left of the brown part of your post, click on "attachments."

Ken_40

Here's how to post a photo.

First locate the photo you want to post, on your computer or CD. Get it into a photo file application editor(Camedia, Adobe, PhotoSmart, MS Picture viewer, etc.) and CHANGE the size to a maximum of 600 pixels wide. Save the edited (smaller) photo to a file name (and place) you can remember! Write the path down!

Come to The Wall. Open this thread. Go to this post and click on "reply."

Write a title and a brief narrative of what the photo shows.

Then go to the very bottom/left of the brown part of your post, click on "attachments." Wait a few seconds and click "browse."

In the Browse

Ken_40

Here's how to post a photo.

First locate the photo you want to post, on your computer or CD. Get it into a photo file application editor(Camedia, Adobe, PhotoSmart, MS Picture viewer, etc.) and CHANGE the size to a maximum of 600 pixels wide. Save the edited (smaller) photo to a file name (and place) you can remember! Write the path down!

Come to The Wall. Open this thread. Go to this post and click on "reply."

Write a title and a brief narrative of what the photo shows.

Then go to the very bottom/left of the brown part of your post, click on "attachments." Wait a few seconds and click "browse."

Something from inside the bowels of your computer will pop up. If it's the picure you just edited, great; click "add" and wait a long time for it to download into the attachment sector. If something alien to the picture you want appears in the popup, mess around in files and find it! Once found, click on it and only "it," and then click "add."

When you se the added file path or title appear below the open box,

Ken_40

Here's how to post a photo.

First locate the photo you want to post, on your computer or CD. Get it into a photo file application editor(Camedia, Adobe, PhotoSmart, MS Picture viewer, etc.) and CHANGE the size to a maximum of 600 pixels wide. Save the edited (smaller) photo to a file name (and place) you can remember! Write the path down!

Come to The Wall. Open this thread. Go to this post and click on "reply."

Write a title and a brief narrative of what the photo shows.

Then go to the very bottom/left of the brown part of your post, click on "attachments." Wait a few seconds and click "browse."

Something from inside the bowels of your computer will pop up. If it's the picure you just edited, great; click "add" and wait a long time for it to download into the attachment sector. If something alien to the picture you want appears in the popup, mess around in files and find it! Once found, click on it and only "it," and then click "add."

When you se the added file path or title appear in the

Ken_40

Here's how to post a photo.

First locate the photo you want to post, on your computer or CD. Get it into a photo file application editor(Camedia, Adobe, PhotoSmart, MS Picture viewer, etc.) and CHANGE the size to a maximum of 600 pixels wide. Save the edited (smaller) photo to a file name (and place) you can remember! Write the path down!

Come to The Wall. Open this thread. Go to this post and click on "reply."

Write a title and a brief narrative of what the photo shows.

Then go to the very bottom/left of the brown part of your post, click on "attachments." Wait a few seconds and click "browse."

Something from inside the bowels of your computer will pop up. If it's the picure you just edited, great; click "add" and wait a long time for it to download into the attachment sector. If something alien to the picture you want appears in the popup, mess around in files and find it! Once found, click on it and only "it," and then click "add."

When you se the added file path or title appear in the "currently attached" box, click OK.

Then go back and fill in the blue security code and hit Prview or Post.

Good luck. This entire process ALWAYS works better with a cold brewskie or two in hand...

Ken_40

He suggests he

used the pump already there, a S-100 that was on the return?

Steamhead (in transit)

Actually, you can over-pump a cast-iron radiator

so that the water goes in a straight line between the inlet and outlet, and does not diffuse properly thru the rad. So, only part of the rad's surface is actually heated properly and its output is reduced.

You'd need a wildly oversized circ to cause this, but- I've seen it happen.


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Alex Giacomuzzi

Interesting Post ---- Still Curious??

Ed

Thanks for making this post. It has made me think about what you had & have piped and I have a few questions if you could share further details (or pictures) here.

On your original system, did you have any water or circulating noises before the pump location change? I have to presume that the system ran as originally plumbed for around 50 years so I presume heating was not a problem.

Now.... when you moved the pump originally, did you reconnect or move the connection for the expansion tank which I assume -- if original -- is a large air over water tank mounted near the floor joists? Or has a diaphragm tank been added since? My question is with regard to location of this connection to your 1.25 inch piping --- return or supply side of the boiler?

Did you add any new air elimination device (Spirovent for example) when you redid the motor location? If so where did you place it?

When you originally moved the model 100, I presume there was a lot of air in the piping system. Did you purge it with a pressurized water source to get it out or just fill it up and let the system work it out?

Last questions --- (I hope) when you moved the pump, did you put in shut off valves on either side of the pump? You mention a globe valve on the outlet, did the inlet have a valve for change out purposes? How long did you allow the model 100 to operate in this new location?

If the system had all the air removed, I am really trying to understand how moving the model 100 pump from the return to the boiler (where it worked for 50 years), to the supply from the boiler caused such noise in the piping?
The other part to understand here is where was the noise that you were hearing in the piping?? Was it up at the radiators, at the piping diverters in the basement, or at the pump ---- or all or the above?
The boiler is a vessel (obviously with heat generating capability) between the two locations. Was the pump mounting arrangement in the new location the same orientation as it was originally located?

Does anyone think there was a sizable change in flow rate between the two locations? Why? I can not see much if any appreciable flow rate change between the two locations.

Air within the system would be my initial concern. Something seems unanswered here and I am still curious?
50 years of operation speaks loudly to me.....

Regards Alex

Uni R_3

edward??? explain please?

I'm still curious about what you meant by 'overwhelm'ing your monoflo system when you moved that S-100. I think you possibly had it pumping backwards or it failed. Unless of course, you can shed some light on how you overwhelm. My system has changed from "pumped in" to "pumping away", and do you know what. I has the S-100 in the beginning and now have 2 15-58s doing primary secondary. I put in a bypass on the tees so that it can run p/s or direct using just the boiler circ. When it is bypassed, the distribution circ is off so it has to pump through it's volute. I do have a bypass planned but I discovered that there really is no rush or performance issue. Anyway, when I piped direct, if I turn on the distribution circ I am effectively pumped in series. With one on medium and one on high, the system isn't overwhelmed although the piping velocity noises are far from their normal silent state. Nothing's adding up yet.

edward goodridge

I switched from a 100

because of high flow. Now use a 22 with less flow, which is working ok. I don't have zones. Ed.

edward goodridge

Alex, I followed

the pumping away layout given at this site, buy and read their book "Pumping Away." I tore out all piping from two old boilers piped together. Rebuilt newer one, installed it, then installed a pumping away layout. I used isolation flanges, an option. The globe valve I use as a throttle, closed half turn, not really needed. This is a big system, 1-1/4" piping and fittings. The 100 pumping away gave high flow, noisy. I put in a 22, which is lower flow, and it is ok.

Alex Giacomuzzi

Still Curious....

Edward..

From what you just wrote, the original house had two boilers piped together. Were they both operational and providing heat to the house when you tore the piping out?
Did each of them have their own pump and did they each serve their own separate loop or where they combined?

A 1.25 inch pipe for a 155K boiler is not a big pipe. It is the recommended size to carry the heat away from a boiler that size.

I am still curious regarding the questions asked above. I understand the smaller pump and the globe valve and the book. That part I understand. The part I am trying to understand is why and where was the repositioned 100 noisy?? Something else had to change in the sytem(s) with the repiping. Do you have any pictures to share?

I had assumed you had one boiler (not two) and you moved the single 100 from the return to the supply side of the boiler.... I did not assume a major repiping in my mind for this to happen. It appears my assumptions were incorrect -- sorry. If you had a major repipe around the boiler, pictures would help understand the possible changes in either design or flow that may contribute to the increased pumping noise. Something else had to have been changed..

Regards Alex

edward goodridge

Two photos are in attachment.

About the photos: My version of pumping away. Heating unit is 1950's US Boiler rated new at 125,000 net BTUh. Supply main is 1.25 inch pipe and fittings. Circulator is a new NRF-22 between isolation flanges. No permanent water feed line. Exposed wire nuts are a code violation. No feed water line may be a code violation. Shut-off above expansion tank is a heating code violation. Safety inspection done by gas company, boiler was passed. I will correct wiring this summer. Homeowners are cautioned to meet all codes if doing a DIY project like this, even if changes appear safe.

edward goodridge

Posted photos and

raised limit to 160. This was the DIY project under thread homeowner on his own. Thanks for your reply, Ed.