Looking for new boiler that can operate during power outage.

ALH_4

There is always the possibility of adding an <a href="http://www.apc.com/index.cfm?ISOCountryCode=us"target="_blank">uninterrupted power supply</a> (UPS) battery backup to carry you through power outages.

G. Callender

finding new steam boiler that can run during power outage.

I have a 1967 Dunkirk steamer (a little larger than the size of a 2 drawer file cabinet) that has run great for many years, even through several power outages in the winter. This unit may soon have to be replaced. I called Dunkirk and gave them all the existing info and they gave me a comparable high-efficiancy replacement model number. I asked if this new unit would/could work during a power failure. The guy laughed and said that no one has built such a unit since Big Brother started to regulate the HVAC industry. (This sounds like the same basic issue with high efficiency toilets for residencial homes) Is there anybody making an emergency attachment that can be mounted to existing boilers and furnaces gas valve that can be activated in such a situation? I think of all the people living out in the country (or the city for that matter) that might not have a generator available to keep the house warm. And busted pipes due to freezing is a big mess to deal with.

Neil_5

Inverter Backup System

I have a gas boiler, and I calculated the amps needed and size a pure sine wave inverter connected to a bank of batteries and are being charged and maintained by a controller. When power goes out I disconnect the boiler power and connect the power from the inverter. It can run the system for 72 hrs.

Neil

Big Ed

24 volts

Two 12V batteries in series would give you the power needed. I would order the boiler with low voltage controls as to not bypass any safey

Dave_23

How many amps

How many amps did you calculate the boiler electrical load to be? A UPS might not be a bad idea. One would need a simple transfer switch with a plug to connect to the UPS. Careful with the UPS batteries; heat shortens their useful life.

Neil_5

My System

For my system to run the circ, the gas valve, the 2 zone valves, the LWCO (120v), the 40VA transformer and the Tekmar controller approx. 200 watts, I then used a 300 watt inverter.

Problem with UPS the output is a modified sine wave, more like a square wave and I don’t want this type of power feeding my electronics, good for lights but not for electronics.

Batteries and charger and in the garage, away from the boiler room.

Neil

realolman

this whole thing sounds like a good idea

but I wonder how much you're really gaining over some sort of small generator?

Plus the gen. could run a few other things.

Unknown

The problem with trying to run the boiler controls of the two 12V batteries is that they provide DC not AC. All of the controls such as gas valves, relays etc are designed for 50 or 60 cycle AC only. Applying 24V DC to any of these will cause the coils to overheat and burnout. Not a good idea, even in an emergency.

Maine Doug_52

I thought that

for steam one could get a milivolt valve that does not require power. Maybe I just dreamed that.

I would like to have a backup in ME also but if one is not home all the time, the gen would have to start and switch over automatically. This could complicate the install for a conventional boiler with controls and many circs.

Shane_2

Before I went off on my own, I did a lot of boiler service every year. I remember a company called Hydrotherm. They used a millivolt system. Powerpile instead of thermocouple, but they worked good. Most of the ones I worked on were hot water, but I distinctly remember some steam ones. They even had instructions on the boiler jacket(in case of power failure open flow control). I don't see why a millivolt gas valve would not be available for a standard steam boiler.

Ed_26

genset

see www.powernow.com - just hooked one up to nat.gas - auto start, auto exersize/charge, & auto switchover. The customer is soooo happy.

Maine Doug_52

Is it

reasonably quiet? I suppose it could be mounted on the roof.

Ron Gillen_2

Pool Heaters

My old 175,000 BTU Teledyne Lars pool heater ran on a powerpile with something called a firemans switch for a saftey. Not sure why you couldn't use that gas valve on any gravity system.

Ed_26

noise levels

This one is said to run @ 79 decibels. Not sure that's the case. Depends where you are in relation to the exhaust??

Dave DeFord_5

Probably don't want it roof mounted...

without an engineer involved. Gensets cause a fair amount of vibration. I have a little second-hand knowledge of roof-mounted gensets and all of them required an engineering study of the effect of the vibrations on the building structure. Granted these were fairly large installations for a radio and TV transmitters/studios but if you think broken pipes are a problem think about collapsed roofs. I know that Onan and several other generator manufacturers make extremely quiet gensets for motorhomes. Most places where people use motorhome generators have extremely strict noise regulations. I can't believe that this same type of equipment isn't available for home use. I've considered the practicality of putting in a generator and the best bet seems to be a propane fired generator with a manual cut-over switch. I know that it can all be automated but is it really worth the cost and maintenance headache. Any automatic switch that I am aware of is going to require a UPS that requires new batteries every couple of years (are you going to check them?) A propane fired generator has fuel that does not have any storage significant issues, won't gum up in the induction system (carburetor or fuel injectors), is readily available if the power at the gas station is out and you can legally store better than a thousand gallons of it on your property in many localities. But as the man said your money your choice.

Dave DeFord_5

You might want to read this

thread from what Tim says (and he knows his stuff) you can't get a millivolt system today. I have the same issues with heat during a power outage and a genset is the only answer I can come up with. Personally I would like to find a propane/natural gas-fueled pull start gen at about 5-6 KW for keeping the house liveable and lack of maintenance (both fuel and batteries). I didn't see one at the Onan site but I'm betting someone makes one. BTW you can probably solve any noise complaints by letting your neighbors use your refigerator to keep the expensive stuff cold. Just my two cents.

Unknown

You can't use

powerpile on heating systems as the ANSI standard requires a dual seated gas valve and all powerpile valves are single seated.

Al_Mollitor

Boiler Backup Power

This discussion is just what I need!



I have a gas-powered steam boiler in my home. My old boiler was a millivolt system, and like my water heater, would operate during a blackout. My newer boiler (1990's) has electric/electronic controls and safety/efficiency features. I'm thinking about a backup power system with a 12v deep-cycle battery, charger (possibly solar) and an inverter to power the 110VAC controls.





Is it definitely a bad idea to try to power such a system with other than a pure sine-wave inverter? I have a modified sine-wave (I think, it was inexpensive) inverter, but I don't want to fry anything.

Al_Mollitor

Pure Sine Wave Essential?

Neil, Is a pure sine wave inverter essential, or is there a decent chance that a modified sine wave inverter might work?

Jean-David Beyer

It depends on the loads.

It depends on what the loads are in the system.



My computers, for example, have switching power supplies, and everything inside is powered from the DC output of the power supply. So I could use a square wave to power them. Certainly a modified sine wave. Actually, my UPSs puts out sine waves.



On the other hand, my boiler has four Taco 007 circulators, three of which could run at the same time. I do not think they would like the excess harmonics that would be present in a modified sine wave and might overheat. My thermostats run from batteries, so they should be OK if their output relays will switch modified sine waves. It they are electromechanical relays, they would be OK. The big questions are whether or not my M&M LWSD and my U-control board would work with this. It depends critically on how their power supplies are designed, and in the case of the U-control, how it switches the circulators on and off.

andprogeny

freewatt

Look into ecr's freewatt. It is a heating system/ generator that pays you back with clean electricity as you heat your house, and can also serve as a limited capacity back up generator.

andprogeny

freewatt

Look into ecr's freewatt. It is a heating system/ generator that pays you back with clean electricity as you heat your house, and can also serve as a limited capacity back up generator.