Gerry Gill & Steve Pajek? Steamhead?

gerry gill

without screwing things up..but i also have the luxury of boxes of gorton vents..my experiance are that i shoot for 3 and still never achieve that speed..(condensation you know)...if the steam didn't condense the math would work more acuratly in the real world...steamheads method would probably yield more balance on the first try.

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Vermonter_3

Dole 95 Data?

I've got a house full of, and remember growing up in a house full of Dole 95 adjustable radiator air vents. These are the kind with the 1-10 scale on the top.

I bought "Balancing Steam Systems" and it doesn't look like this valve is listed. Does anyone here have the venting capacity of this vent?

I'd love to volunteer mine (or a few if need be) for testing not only so that this information could be added to the book for the betterment of all, but also so that I can selfishly balance my system without buying 13 new vents!

GREAT book by the way! Thanks to Steamhead for convincing me to get it! I'm curious though, the book recommends 3 minutes to vent the radiator, but Steamhead recommended 7-10 minutes. I'm guessing this so I have more time to actually let the mains fill up and allow the vents on the radiators to balance the system. Any other reasons I'm missing?

Steamhead (in transit)

Sure they're not

Dole 1A vents? That's what they're called in the Baltimore area.....

Also, venting a rad too fast can produce banging. I've always used 7-10 minutes with good results.

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[Deleted User]

Hammerhead...

If you vent the mains and radiators too fast, you coould kick up a ruckus in the system from steam hammer.

Franks suggestion is a reasonable number that allows the distribution system to heat slowly and avoid excess hammer. I suspect that Dans information came from the original engineers, dealing with new, un-rusted/scaled up pipes...

But I could be talking through my hat :-)

Trust me when I say that Frank is speaking from true field experience, which trumps all.

ME

Steamhead (in transit)

I've never been able

to make a parallel-flow main bang from over-venting. Haven't tried it on a counter-flow main yet, but will the first chance I get.

And thanks, Mark.

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Vermonter_3

Counterflow main

I've got a short (14 foot) one inch counterflow main with 2 radiators attached and a elbow just before the two take-offs. One radiator is 40.5 ft.EDR and one 12ft.EDR. They both have varivalves wide open and won't bang...

Not sure if this is conclusive but thought you may find it interesting.

Steamhead (in transit)

What pitch

do you have on that main?

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Vermonter_3

Here's a couple pictures

They're not great pics, but maybe they help.

The bottom is stamped 95. The disk on top is marked 1-10.

Vermonter_3

1\" per 10' [nt]

Steamhead (in transit)

That sounds right

and may be why it doesn't bang. I'm looking for a real long one feeding a bunch of rads to try to over-vent to the point where it bangs.

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Vermonter_3

Wish I could help...

Especially considering I've may as well have a Hoffman 75 on every radiator in my house!

Wish I bought that book before I bought 14 Varivalves!

gerry gill

we'll test anything

that someone wants us to test..steamhead has sent me vents to test before..so has john shea in detroit..we test them and send them back, and add the info to the list..if you want to send it i'll test it..i've only created problems venting to fast a couple of times..tho its a rude slap in the face with humble pie, when it happens..

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Vermonter_3

Do you recognize the one I posted pictures of? [nt]

gerry gill

looks the same

as my dole 1a..except my 1a has a metal syphon tube..we don't see many doles around here, so i can't answer why..

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Vermonter_3

But the book only shows 6 settings...

But the book only shows 6 settings for the 1A, are settings 7-10 the same?

Steamhead (in transit)

It's a 1A

not sure what the 95 means, maybe the year it was made or the assembly line and shift?

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Steamhead (in transit)

Sure you aren't looking at

the Hoffman #1A? That one has the 1-6 setting range.....

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Christian Egli_2

Bang, boom, kablooie

This is tourist me taking pictures of pipes: a very old steam main at the point where it leaves the header. It's squeaky clean. Steam mains are wonders of nature because return lines, in contrast, are not exactly immaculate.

I can't conceive of a main going into hammering just because of too much or too little venting. One pipe radiators with the cross flow at the valve is something else, but for pipes do this, conceptually:

Imagine the end of main with its last fitting removed - plenty of openness - absolute venting. Then turn on the steam...

What do you think will happen? Is it like in the movies, where things immediately start sweating and explode in giant balls of fire? If you think so, perhaps slowly stepping away from the remote is what you should do next.

If you are looking at the mains on a large district-like system, be careful though, there is deadly power there, but here, we're talking about small-ish heating systems.

Almost regardless of the boiler pressure, the steam invasion will advance only at the slower of 1) the air venting or 2) the speed at which the steel warms up. Stone cold pipes will not let loose of any steam, even if you're impatiently sucking on the exit.

With everything wide open, the question becomes: how long will it take to bring the BTU necessary to warm up the pipe? Well, a few minutes. How impatient are you?

Sitting at the open end, you hear the casual drone of the oncoming steam. It eventually gets there, then, all of a sudden, it's cooking hot. I've done this many times, me, the human manual air vent and it's not all fireballs like in Hollywood. Tool trucks don't explode and topple each other either. I guess real life is boring.

Since big vents are a little more expensive than small ones, why install much more than the fastest warming up time can allow for? Note also, provided the atmospheric air hole is not obstructed, how two pipe systems are way over vented just with open radiator traps - and they don't hammer, their hallmark is being soundless, really totally soundless, you can glue your ear on a radiator and you'll hear nothing at all... it'll just burn. (I'm talking about an asbestos ear of course)

Hammering is all caused by faulty condensate removal. Properly pitched pipes should never encounter any problems dealing with the start up condensate, after all, there can't be any more start up condensate formation than there is in plain operating condensate, it all comes from the same BTU per hour firing rate at the boiler. It doesn't matter either if the condensate just sweated off the local pipe or if it is streaming from elsewhere, it still is going down the same path.

Ha, gotta go, steam's banging at the door...

gerry gill

if i remember right,

the dole 1a we tested was of an old vintage..they may have added more settings as time went on..

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Dave_4

Interested in testing a few?

I brought some with me to work, I'd sure be thankful if you'd like to test them. Should I use the address that you have listed online?

Thanks,
John

Dave_4

Probably a date stamp

Looked at the side and the writing was so faint I missed it first time.

[Deleted User]

The reason I mentioned it...

is because I have had situations (rare) whereby the branch had inadequate pitch for counterflow and the only solution was to slow the venting process down significantly.

But thanks for the visuals just the same:-)

You paint a great picture.

ME

gerry gill

yes,

that address works..sure i'll test them and send them back.

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Dave_4

You'll see 'em tomorrow! [nt]

Vermonter_3

Gerry, did they get there OK? [nt]

gerry gill

yup, came today

i'll try to test them this weekend for you..

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Vermonter_3

Thanks in advance!

Do you ever use that eqipment to really fine-tune an adjustable vent? Any pictures of the set-up? I'd love to see...

gerry gill

no, i don't

fine tune anything with them..just take readings and chart them..i carry all the different size gortons, and thats how i balance..to me the adjustable vents are just to darn slow..even on high opening..

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Vermonter_2

You shoot for 3 minutes as in the book or 10 like Steamhead?[nt]

Vermonter_2

What speed do you find you usually achieve? [nt]

gerry gill

depends

cause the steam condenses upon entry to the radiator..the math can't take it into account..see, the math acts like everything is air..

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