info on oddity? (GrandPAH)

don_185

all around the condenser? So I take it.. it was a 5 ton drive/distribution system and coil and someone got the 7.5 condenser at a real good price.

You did'nt know...everything can be fixed with duct tape.

Just want to say its good to have you vist us chillhead...
Grandpah.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

Just when you think....

you've seen all there is to see with furnaces & A/C units!

Ran into a weird Goodman A/C set up today. Indoor slab measures 34" high x 45" wide x 7.5" thick. Liquid line is 1/2" OD & suction is buried in plaster. Outdoor cage is deeply frozen into thick ice, so no access. Inside the cage resides a tantalizing mystery. A Goodman dual condenser conjoined with a short compartment from which this single line set is run. It's buried in the ice too, so I can't determine the suction line size.

Gotta be at least 7.5-tons. Can't say as I can recall seeing a factory rig like this one before, but maybe it was Goodman's way of getting into light commercial?

Here's the other oddity. The driving force behing the air-flow is a 128K furnace! Most I've seen a furnace of that size rated for is 2K CFMs. Sumpin ain't kosher.

Why do I get the weird ones?!?

They want an estimate for a new furnace and just the indoor coil replaced.

Now, if that's not enough weirdness, try this: the flue from the furnace has a jury-rigged collar to go from its old oval shaped outlet to 6" B-vent. That travels some 8' to a 6" terra-cotta chimney thimble, which is, of course, not a 6" ID, so they transversed back to single-wall pipe and fashioned it into a tapered cone (held together with pop-rivets) so they could stuff it into the 5" ID thimble.

I'm taking a camera when I go back.

Anyone ever see a Goodman twinned factory rig like this?

don_156

Sure!

I see it all the time with goodman products.LOL.

It sounds like someone screw up the internet order and forgot to send the other furnace.

So man of many hats...what hat will you be wearing when you
break the bad news to the customer?

Eugene Silberstein 3

Make certain you...

Make certain you take some really good pictures. These are the types of things that students (and teachers) love to see!

As Don said, good luck breaking the news to the customer.

The problem may very well be that, once you break the news about the replacement options and the costs to make things right, they may very well shop around to get the lowest price, which, quite often, does not include making things "right" at all.

Good luck, my friend.

Marty

rheem ?

Dave are you positive it was a goodman ? Rheem or Rudd has something like what You seem to be describing the older ones did sorta look like goodmans.

http://www.rheemac.com/products/ProductInfo.aspx?XSL_File=rheemac_product_profile.xsl&Market=Commercial&SectionVar=Cooling&Category=Condensing Units&SpecificModel=RAWE

the current rheem one.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

like a hound-dog

We tracked down the supply house salesman who delivered the Goodman goods! It is a 7.5-ton twinned condenser. Seems they made a 7.5 and 10-ton models. That at least saves me from an ice-chopping episode in the rain tomorrow(G).

The hat of truth, justice & the American way - natch!

It was scabbed onto an antique slab-coil. Salesmen like to dish dirt(G). Says he dropped it off & got outta Dodge pronto.

We'll start with the truth wrapped up in a heat loss/gain M-J report & go from there. They secured a grant to pay for what they thought it would cost - whatever that is.

As you've noted, we probably won't get the work. Soon as I began my talk about 13-SEER and why we need to install matching units, the eyes glazed over & I knew it was time to shut up. No doubt there are others tewlling them it's a non-issue. But, it's an interesting exercise and certainly had me chewing on me hat today.

It ain't over till the fat lady sings!

Hey Prof, we was kicking around the oil migration issues today. There's a suction line trap on this puppy within inches of the evap coil - even though the coil is above the twinned condensers. Total line set length would be bout 50' in each direction. I'm still scratching over the air-flow issues, which don't add up. It's an old Borg Warner furnace 160K/128K bonnet & we think it was rated at just under 2K CFMs.

We're in York International land here and can always tell when we land in an older home that once belonged to one of their enginerers as there's some real Dr. Frankenstein installations with multiple refrigeration circuits off of single condensers to multiple air handlers still functioning!

Still waiting for Goodman's reply. It was nice to run into the sales guy who had the inside scoop today.

Eugene Silberstein 3

Oil Trap

In Goodman's installation literature, they require an oil trap at the evaporator coil even if the evapoartor is located above the condenser. They want the line to leave the evaporator, trap and then rise up to a level above the top of the evaporator and then down to the condensing unit.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

prezactly

as it is on the job site. Was this due to the coil being as large as a wall? I'm still waiting for Goodman to reply to my e-mail.

So, what's your take on the low airflow issue? Is this another reason for the huge slab? Or, was that simply a function of the old system being a 4- or 6-SEER unit? They want a $$ on a new coil (only) & no doubt we could obtain one to work with a TXV for 7.5-tons of R-22, but I get the heebie-jeebies thinking of venturing into those potentially deep waters.

don_185

New coil

or not..you will always have insufficient heat load on the
evaporator.

I would check my operating static pressure and let it reveal
what my true cfm were and then go from there.

Opps forgot to mention maybe John Mills will chime in and give you the number to our respected, elite,goodman advisor,
Robo.He recently moved to lancaster I believe and he would be the man with all the right answer.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

some pics

Well,

The M-J confirmed my suspicions & gave me the info needed to finish the proposal.

Here's a few pics to detail some of the issues. My favorite is the duct tape vibra-pad that was utilized to stop the blower motor from doing any more damage to the blower door! That's a 3" motor pulley running a 5" blower pulley. 1125 RPM's at the motor, which translates to about 650 RPM's at the squirrel cage. Varrrroooooommmmmm!

Then again, that reduced woggle-joint at the chimney is a doozer too. Why B-vent I wonder?!?

mtfallsmikey

You certainly get the good ones!

don't they believe in Pyroseal around the thimble up there in York township? If the original Borg-Warner nameplate is on the front door, I'd like to have it for my collection, as I lost the only one I have.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

if

we get the job, it's yours to have.

don_156

Can we

Can we beatup on the h20 heater install now?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

speak

freely!

don_185

Thank You.

I see no shutoff valves at the cold water line or at the expansion tank.No drip leg for the gas line.The drip leg for the heater will discharge into the air inlet of the heater.Uninsulated water lines in uncondition area.

No antiscald valve or any thought of the big L with a heater
that proberly gets very little use.

Ok I'll stop sounding like a **** and give credit where credit is due and say, I really love the copper hanging strap.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

copper!

Aside from being a silly waste of money in this app, you should know this: it is fastened to the ductwork for its support(G). At least it's not that plastic hanger-strapping junk. And, they got the TXT sizing right. Kudos on using copper for the drip-leg too. Plastic drip-legs should be illegal IMHO. If there is a run-away condition and forcible 210F discharge, the plastic drip leg has the potential to be compromised. The drip-leg's purpose is to allow a person to safely approach the water heater during an emergency event and disable the energy input - be it gas, elec, oil, or solar.

It is cold in this mechanical room as there are two 16x8 fresh air screened openings. Their free-air space equals just 181" after deducting for the grills & screening. Technically, that's not enough for both appliances and should total 198 square inches. Nit picking 101.

It's oversized for the two lavs and break-room sink served. There are no showers or bathing modules.

The room's 2-hour fire rating was compromised by someone poking a 4' square hole through the fire-retardant ceiling.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

often true

Eugene,

We often run head-first into these types of situations. While I've performed my due diligence and determined what is wrong, how that happened, who did the dirty deeds, and what needs to be done - based on the M-J reports I generated, I only share enough information during the bidding process to inform the customer that simply replacing the existing mistakes with a repeat of history will not be included with our proposal. While they now have my quote for installing the right combination of equipment, they do not have enough info to obtain other quotes.

Anyone wanting to bid will have to form their own conclusions and do their own heat loss/gain calcs.

They have received my offer to go over all details, including the in-depth M-J report, once we are granted the work with an option to withdraw without penalties if anyone cares to refute our findings.

It's tough to walk the fine line between giving out enough info to convince owners, builders, architects, etc..., that you are the one exercising correct proceedures, while others simply provide swap-out pricing, with enough information provided to substantiate your position - yet not give away the store.

They know there are "issues" with the system. It still "works", so that's the first clue for asking about reasons for getting quotes. My Q&A session revealed a number of problems. I was fairly certain there were serious sizing issues before laying eyes on the equipment - from their answers. In each situation like this, it's vital to know who to ask about the system's performance. Pick the right source & ask the right questions & they'll unburden themselves. No one else has given them an ear & they'll give you an ear-full(G).

Marty

nice

Not even getting 2000 cfm with that return, may be big enough but unless both sides or bottom are used it kills the airflow.

Plumdog_2

tapered reducer

I was taught to make those years ago. They called it a "Dutchman". I quit using the technique around 1974 when I got ahold of a codebook. Don't forget to put a gas cock on the outside of that bad boy!

John L

Looks like

the return drop is not big enough and should be either a wrap around return or the furnace should be mounted on a furnace box with the return going into the box. That is probably only a 5 ton blower on that bad boy!!
post the pix of the changeout

John L

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

Bingo!

You got that right. On both counts. I measured all the various supply/return ducts to run a Manual-D calc. No wonder they admitted to having "issues" once I started asking the right questions.

I will - if we get the job. It's likely another contractor might come along and, not knowing any better, submit a quote without checking too deeply about system-wide conditions.

With the proposal I sent, there's just enough info to let them know we know what's wrong and that the system, as it exists, is not properly installed or matched to the building's heat loss/gain. How they handle that knowledge will speak volumes about their ethics. Certainly wouldn't be the first, or last, time I'll see someone take a low-ball bid knowing full well the bidder is headed for a disaster. Given today's ultra-sensitive equipment, a job like this one has the potential to become some poor schlub's nightmare.