buderus, balanced flue, coaking problems

Dave_4

funny, just today i was sent to a call for odor/fumes. it was a buderus g215-5 with a riello 40 f10 burner. i took a smoke test and had zero smoke, tested the co2 and the stack temp; both were in perfect range. 375 gross temp with a 12% co2. i pulled the gun assembly and found about 2" of carbon built up on the turbulator. hmmmm.... what was going on ?
well i called my service manager, and he told me that the nozzle it was firing was recently changed in the spec. sheet. it called for a 1.50 x 80w with a 145psi pump pressure. that was changed to a 1.35 x 60 b with a 165 psi pump pressure. ok, so i changed the burner set up to match the new specs. the head setting didn t change it was still 1.5. the air setting changed slightly from 3.2 to 3.25. ok, did that. then i noticed that the original efficiency test indicated that the draft was measured at -.o1 hg. when i measured the draft it read -.06. hmmmm....

i adjusted the draft regulator to match the manufacturers specs. -.01 to -.02 hg. took the smoke draft co2 and stack temp again. again no smoke. did i fix it ? i don't know. i told the customer to give us a call monday if the odor persisted. i guess i'll find out.

what concerns me is two things, first is why did buderus change their original burner specifications for the riello, and second why was the draft so different from the original installation efficiency test. ok. my guess is that the installer never set the draft inducer correctly because he never let the chimney heat up sufficiently before taking his draft test. that probably solves that part, but why did buderus change their specs. for the riello burner. that will have to go unsolved for now, unless they respond here or until monday when i can call one of their reps. to try to get a straight answer. i hope this helped in some small way.

rd

buderus, balanced flue coaking problems

I need help!
I only install Buderus boilers. I am the company and installer, always use instruments in setting up.
Problem I am having, on balanced flue systems, (direct vent) I have encountered a coaking problem on 80% of the systems I installed last year.
All boilers are with the bf3, Reielo burner. All specs, ie 4/64ths, 13/64, you get my driff, They are set up correct. Buderus says add room air, by the the air intake as cold oil could be making this happen.
I am in Ma., has been cold and any help would be appreciated. Please, I understand and checked electrodes, spacing and pump pressure. Thanks in advance
Rick

Leo

My Company

The company I work for installs these also. We changed to Carlin burners which have a nozzle line heater, guess what, same problem. All Buderus ever says is call us from the job site. I find it very frustrating to not be able to have information at my finger tips or in a place such as this to use when needed. We also on occasion have problems with Buderus boilers on a chimney, runs well for a year then goes south. I'm sorry I don't have a definitive answer but I sure share your frustration.

Leo

Ragu_5

rd....

I truly feel that direct vent does not work consistently with oil fired appliances, regardless of U.L. and C.S.A. approval; I have given up on them, and I refuse to do them anymore. This has nothing to do with any brand in particular; I truly believe that they are not ready for the market. Just my opinion.

P.S. I have also given up on power venting oil fired appliances; I just don't need the headaches anymore.

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Dave_4

correction

i didnt mean to write draft inducer, it was meant to say draft regulator. sorry.

kevin coppinger_4

Amen...

Same w/ me...It is hard to get the same readings when the intake air changes from 40F to -10F...it is a different burn.The concentric vent might help warm up the air but it is too madenin for me to deal w/.....kpc

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Leo

We also have

Beside the Buderus boilers and their issues we have a couple Peerless direct vents one Riello and one AFII with no issues. We also have a Utica with an AFG again no problems. Maybe the pin boilers set up for direct vent are better suited. We have a number of power vented units with the only issues being the mechanical issues directly related to the venters themselves ie bad fan/motor combinations after a number of years of service. Once in a while a bad control board but we have board problems on any unit that has any type of board.

Leo

J Sacco

coaking burner

Use a 60w nozzle I find they give the best performance with the F3 &F5 burners

Big Ed_3

The Product Is Changing

I come across problems with a few riellos in the last few weeks Not just Buderus . Had a Riello in a Peerless and also in a Bock . All set up to specs with 60* nozzles . Either it produced smoke or bad ignition . I checked everything .To clear the fire I needed to increase the air way past the spec posted,but when I did ,it lit off on a bad ignition or didn't fire at all .II had another problem ,flame on drop out , over and over until it took off Yes I hit the book and and check and changed everything . I had to change it to a 80* to clear the problem s. Odd, never had these problem before

Is it the 20% Bio Fuel they add to the fuel oil ? May be they are dumping extra in the mix to get rid of it before it get rainiest ?

Why the recent epidemic of growth of slime on vent alarms ?

rd

thanks, trying to figure out what is happening, it helps with the type of infromation you gave. I did talk to Dana, at Rielo and he recommeded useing Monarch nozzels and set pupm pressure to 160??? they confused me more because the information he faxed me was from 1995 Hey, thanks for your help!!

rd

I meant 2005!

allenleo

to rd

rd the boiler i worked on was just installed on oct.11, 2006. it has a printed sticker on the riello burner stating the nozzle gph, head setting, airgate setting, and pump pressure, but riello has since changed those specs. for the f10 when used with this boiler the g215-5. so what i'm saying is that the specs. they gave you may or may not be accurate, considering that they changed the specs. i used within the last three months, but gave you specs. from two years ago.
if i were you i would double check with the boiler manufacturer, to see what they suggest be used for your applications.

D107

info from buderus

ho here. I've found Buderus tech online and phone assistance to be outstanding. The problem is that much of the detailed info on their web forum that emerges in answer to questions posed really should be edited into their user and service manuals. At the very least it could be printed up as a supplment--it would reduce alot of the phone calls and emails.

We had a G-115/21 installed with a riello that on its sticker said it was set up for a larger g115; the supplemental sheet to the buderus boiler listed the correct latest setup procedures which required nozzle and baffle changes.
David

Mellow_2

coaking

We have been installing the g115-21 with realo for seven years now all with garber filters.... We did about fifty last year alot of small houses and we are a small company....... We have had coaking over the years but have blamed the oil or the crap in the oil..... UNTIL, the last two years when the calls have picked up..... about two years ago, the realo was changed. the blast tube is longer the fuel unit went from 170psi to 145psi and the ret head was changed...... We beleive the change was to not over fire the boiler anymore and make it burn better but we are still getting problems. The first problem was the .50 80* B nozzle that comes with the burner now, this nozzle would not run in most of the boilers we installed. The buderus rep suggested to put in the .50 70* A nozzle instead and we are able to keep the boilers running....... we still get the off on reset calls and we return to find carbon on the ret head...... I know you think it could be the way it was set up or just because we were there, right? Well we have the rep watching us and all the settings. we use digital testers to set up the boilers so they should be correct.
the last unit we installed we had a new testo meter to use to set the fire and look at what we found. The first .50 70* A nozzle was installed the readings were 280 deg 11.4 co2 7o2.... this ran for awile before rumbling to a stop and would not light with out closing air shutter..... second nozzle installed 320 deg 15co2 4o2 this nozzle had a slight rumble and with the air wide open would not go below a 14.3 co2 Installed third nozzle put the head back on a one and the air on 2 1/2 fired with a 390 deg 12 co2 5.9 o2 perfect fire........ without the testo we would never find this problem. I do not fault the equipment this is a great boiler package.... I just do not know what to do about the combustion....we have tryed carlin burners and on top of the carbon we have to change igniters and controls...... sorry about the long post and I think the products are all good..... this is just what I see from working on the units. I have been thinking about having two garber filters but is the oil realy to blame?? Is the .50 nozzle so small that we can't use them? or is it the way it burns?

Ragu_5

Yo, Kevin....

We really don't need the hassle; time has proven that these things don't work consistently. Only my opinion and experience. See ya.

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rd

thanks leo
I think I will be calling Reielo(sp) tomorrow as Buderus does not seem to have a handle on it. Thanks for your response, and I am glad I decided to check out this site. I tried a few years ago, but thought they were just trying to sell books. I am wrong and thanks again
RD

Leo

If you

If you read the Buderus specs that come with it they say they supercede Riello specs, then go to the web site and there are upgraded specs. Then they tell you on direct vent to widen the electrode gap on Riello's, and to open the vacumn braker on the air inlet to let in warmer room air. Doing all of these there are still problems. There are also problems with the Carlin burner. The one common denominater is the Buderus Boiler. Our experience is this boiler is frustrating. My boss got the free trip to Germany so we keep putting them in.
As Ken Secor always says, "Superior marketing overcomes inferior products everytime".

Leo

rd

YOU WOULD THINK A WIDER SPRAY PATTERN< 80 degree verses 60. I use th w nozzle, at 60 degree. I don't know, I havea vew oil boilers, Utica direct vent and a ton of
Thermo-Pride furnaces, the new 5 series, balanced flue-direct vent. $hit, hope I did not just jinx myself!!
Hey, thanks for your help
RD

rd

readings

Kevin, readings?? I just look at the fire and I know!! Just kidding!! I always use W, even though the g-115 does not call for a W when the 4 section calls for a W. Go figure, You did not mention if you have had this problem, I have been installing these for10 plus years and only know having this problem.
Thanks for your help
RD

rd

readings

Kevin, readings?? I just look at the fire and I know!! Just kidding!! I always use W, even though the g-115 does not call for a W when the 4 section calls for a W. Go figure, You did not mention if you have had this problem, I have been installing these for10 plus years and only know having this problem.
Thanks for your help
RD

allenleo

laughing out loud

hey leo, that's really funny, because the vice president of my company is going on that free trip to germany next week to see the buderus plant. lol. now that's what i call incentive laden advertisement.

Ted_9

G215/5

That's great since we are installing a G215/5 this week. I haven't decided on the burner now. Maybe Carlin?

But I wonder, how many other brand boilers have this problem. Buderus gets a lot of attention on this site. There must be alot of Peerless direct vents. These are pin not 3 pass, as I understand. I just find it hard to believe that their three pass boiler is much and any different than the others. Do the others not have problems? and is this an oil issue? Is the oil not consistent?


Massachusetts

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allenleo

ted

personally, i like carlin ez pro burners, but my company likes to install riello. i think both work well, when set up correctly. i think the buderus boiler is a good boiler, but still every system is different because the conditions in every house are different. for me personally, i prefer the carlin burners; from a service standpoint they are easier to work on and i usually have any part necessary to repair them. riello parts are more expensive and we don't see as many of them out in the field, so we don't stock our trucks with the replacement parts for them. our boss won't let us keep riello on the trucks, we have that stock back in our stockroom. it is kind of a pain to have to go back to the shop to get a part for a riello burner, especially on a cold busy night.

rd

oil problems and dirty hands!!

Mellow,
I don't think two filters will help. I always use a gerber filter, at the appliance. I put a reglar filter at the tank. The .50 nozzel has always scared me. I am told the Carlin (with the nozzle pre heater) does not help. I don't know, is it the fracturaction of the oil? It sucks when you sell on the best equimment and have to go back for a no heat call and find a golf ball size of coak, that finaly shut off on saftey.
I will be calling reilleo to see if the have any insight. I do find Buderus quick and easy to get to a tech person, but they have not soved my problem yet.

rd

Mr. Smith
You said a mouthful, about a cold busy night!
I am a one man show, and bought Reiello(sp) repair box ten years ago, and except for checking the primary control, all the parts are still there. That is why I like them, if set up right, no problems. I like Carlin, one town over from where they are made, but because of their warranty problems on their water heaters 10 or so years ago, not much of them in the field here. Anyways, thanks for your input

rd

I am starting to believe it is the oil. The boiler is sweet. I have not had this issue until this year and the reason why I like them so much, dial them in to about 11% co, and next year there is nothing to clean!! I know, it cost my customer about 10 dollars on oil for the year, but the phone is not ringing at AM!

rd

I am starting to believe it is the oil. The boiler is sweet. I have not had this issue until this year and the reason why I like them so much, dial them in to about 11% co, and next year there is nothing to clean!! I know, it cost my customer about 10 dollars on oil for the year, but the phone is not ringing at AM!

rd

I am starting to believe it is the oil. The boiler is sweet. I have not had this issue until this year and the reason why I like them so much, dial them in to about 11% co, and next year there is nothing to clean!! I know, it cost my customer about 10 dollars on oil for the year, but the phone is not ringing at AM!

rd

I am starting to believe it is the oil. The boiler is sweet. I have not had this issue until this year and the reason why I like them so much, dial them in to about 11% co, and next year there is nothing to clean!! I know, it cost my customer about 10 dollars on oil for the year, but the phone is not ringing at AM!

rd

I am starting to believe it is the oil. The boiler is sweet. I have not had this issue until this year and the reason why I like them so much, dial them in to about 11% co, and next year there is nothing to clean!! I know, it cost my customer about 10 dollars on oil for the year, but the phone is not ringing at AM!

rd

Leo
That is what bothers me. Opening up the vacuum breaker, does that not take away the safety factor?
Crown boiler had the scotch marine design for years, I like the boiler design. I just wish they would find the problem, because I am not going to install any more, until they do Hey, 86 more laps in the race!!

brucewo1b

If its the saftey factor that concerns you

then you would have to take out the vaccum breaker all together. Vaccum breaker is there to pull in room air if the vent gets blocked, opening it just takes in room air to help warm the outdoor air, as long as the vent is clear then the aftey factor remains, and ican pull in outdoor air as needed.

brucewo1b

If its the saftey factor that concerns you

then you would have to take out the vaccum breaker all together. Vaccum breaker is there to pull in room air if the vent gets blocked, opening it just takes in room air to help warm the outdoor air, as long as the vent is clear then the aftey factor remains, and it can pull in outdoor air as needed.

RonWHC

Don't do little Blue,

but it appears other direct vent boilers are not having the problem, at least not on this scale.

The missing denominator, between the other guys & blue, is blue has no fiber chamber. Could cold air, cold oil (sometimes), & cold cast, result in an environment cold enough to chill the flame, & start the carbon tree. Has anyone tried laying a blanket on the bottom of blue's chamber area?

EBEBRATT-Ed

I used to do nothing but oil mostly commercial and some residential for the first 13 of my 33 years in the business.

So you can say I'm out of touch. I don't care.

I have always encountered burners, factory tested packages at that that wouldn't run right using the factory settings.

Let's face it oil quality is probably not as consistant as gas quality.

These burners are tested in their lab with their oil under their conditions.

Conditions in the field will never exactly match the lab.

Start with the factory settings read the manual--thats what it's for---whatta you gonna do when it dosent work--you fix it--change pump pressures, change nozzles etc until you get something that will work consistantly.

Thats what they do in the lab.

ED

Leo

Ed,

Your point is well taken but why is it basically one brand that this has to be done frequently? It starts to get old after a while while other brands are much more stable.

Leo

Ted_9

Viessmann

what about the Vitorond 100 and the DeDetiechs(new slant fin)?

They are 3 pass.

Massachusetts

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Joe@buderus_2

Burner set specs

Buderus has depended on the the burner manufactures to provide the burner set up specifications. THIS IS CHANGING. We are now in the process of having the burners re-tested and then we will conduct our own testing to verify the burner manufactures results. Quality of oil, variation in nozzle specifications, vent termination and burner set up are all being looked into. (Example - The Fields vent termination was re-designed about a year ago to help prevent cross contanimation as well as reduce the static pressure). We don't provide different specs than the burner manufacture, we offer suggested changes that we have obtained from field tech input or personal experience. Riello is mentioned because it is used more often than the others.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Leo,

That is the question. Some of the basics never change. Cold oil, cold combustion air, and burning in a cold environment(no target wall or floor blanket) will affect combustion to the detrimental side. How many problems will it cause?-who knows. Apparently some manufacturers have delt with these problems better than others. Also better insulated homes require smaller inputs--smaller nozzles are more difficult to get good combustion with--less margin for error --less run time--less heat into the combustion zone.

Now the newer high static burners are probably more tolerant of these problems but in the Buderus case it's likley cold oil, cold air, cold combustion--at least at start-up.

ED

Ragu_5

Good dialogue on this one!

First of all, I have to thank Joe Kenard from Buderus for stepping up; that is what tech support is all about!

I think EBEBRATT (sp?) with obviously many years of combustion experience hit the nail on the head; cold everything! Cold oil, cold chambers and cold intake air can be trouble.

That said, I agree with another issue: .50 nozzles are tough. I also think that there may be something of value to looking into Monarch and Steinen nozzles...Hmm...

Here in Downeast Maine, this is what I have seen (not all my jobs): Buderus with Riello BF in direct vent works well. Buderus with Carlin direct vent don't work well. New York Thermal 3 pass with Riello BF and direct vent work well. Peerless with Riello BF and direct vent work well.

Concentric vents do not work as well as when the intake and exhaust are separated (sp?).

Intake air kits for non direct vents have proven troublesome in small 3 pass boilers with Becket NX. For whatever reason, the ohm reading on the cad cell is about 400 ohms with cellar air, and over 1,000 ohms with outside air connected.

I still look at the Installation Manuals (Paraphrased here): "The Manufacturer cannot be held liable for sooting up of the exterior of the house..."

I've lost my confidence on these things. Just an opinion based on my personal experience, and no offense meant to anyone! Jack

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Leo

Joe

Joe,

I am asking this out of frustration, do you have a rough estimate when the test results will be published?

Thanks,
Leo