water treatment for steam boiler

tom_82

again thanks for all of your responses. Any of you guys want to come to Boston to look at our troubled system?
We do have lots of problems and have been looking for someone to give us a second opinion. Seems like the only steam guy with experience on a large boiler like ours, that is connected to this site and lives around Boston is unavailable.
Seriously, we are having serious doubts regarding how our system is operating and if anyone knows a steam guy around here, pass me his info.
THanks again.
For now, I will take your advise, see how we can get the bottom of the boiler cleaned out. Maybe get the condesate return tank cleaned out, and see what happens from there.
Thanks
Tom
Tom

tom_82

water treatment for steam boiler

Any thoughts.
we had a h2o analisis. Ph was 10.8 other than that they didn't find any wierd chemicals. We have a bouncy water line and really dirty water.
The compahny reccomends a complete water treatment for a year. They don't really say what that is, in that they don't mention any specific chemicals. They say it will help fight corroxion.
THoughts?
Thanks
TOm

Brad White_9

A pH that high

would have your water bouncing like Pamela Anderson on a trampoline.

If the treatment company is being coy, I would find another vendor. Call George at Rhomar.

You may not get to the formula but at least should have MSDS sheets and know what the safety level is.

Unknown

MSDS ?

Brad, MSDS on water treatment or Pamela Anderson?

tom_82

Thanks Brad.
We met the other night at Dan's seminar. Can you believe we are still struggling with this boiler and with who and what to do...
Thank goodness for this web site.
Can I ask you another thing? I thought, because of what I read in Dan's books, that the high Ph was making the water bounce around. But WHY does the high Ph make the water bounce?
Thanks

ttekushan_3

in the old days

some boiler operators added enough vinegar to lower the pH to what was probably 7.5 or 8. Or so I've heard. Its supposed to be harmeless.

The only problem was that a smell a vinegar could be detected in rooms heated with single pipe radiators.

I suppose you could go to an aquarium store and get a pH kit and add a little vinegar just to see if the water line stabilizes.

Then make a large pot of some kind of Eastern European sour soup so no one notices the vinegar smell from the radiators.

-Terry

Joe K_2

What Chemicals

Are these chemicals dangerous?
What do they accomplish?
My installer knows nothing about PH or chemicals
and says they may be dangerous.
We have a new Peerless boiler on an old 1
pipe systems...it has been 3 months and the
water is still very rusty and surging.
JK

Ken_40

Water treatment vendors are

mostly whores. (The lone exception being Rhomar IMO)

They sell chemicals, that's their job. The fact that the chemials added may be added to "other" chemicals already in play, from naturall forming acids and TDS's to chlorine and floride.

Cleaning the entire system FIRST - BEFORE adding ANY treatment is NEVER suggested! Because of this, most additives become an unknown chemical "soup" that may, or in most cases - especially yours - become a quagmire of some actual water, in a soltuin of funk - that DuPont Labs couldn't break down.

The other major problem with wtare treatment is the way its infused. They all suggest so many ml/day. On warm days when the boiler runs once to take the morning chill off - you get x-ml pumped in. When it's 5 below and the boiler steams 20 hrs., the pump still injects x-ml - when it should have injected xxxx-ml.

During warmer weather we find the pH around 12. In the cold weather we find it 7.5.

Dump the entire boiler. Refill with clean water and se what happens for a day. If the bounce goes away, you had too much treatment in and you need to tie the injector pump's rate to anything that cycles with the on and off workings of the system.

I like the boiler feed pump circuit, you can also use the bruner "on" circuit. a condenstae return pump; almost anything to have a demand based time of injector power.

Let us knwo how you make out.

Ken_40

That's not the size boiler

to be treat,ment concerned with.

Dump the boiler, put 1 cup of TSP in per 100,000 BTU of input, refill to within 1" of the gage glass top and almost let it steam. (If you let it steam with TSP in, and the TSP gets into the distribution side of the system, you'll loosen up 70 years old previoisly harmless junk - and be married to the system for a year efore the clearing is permanent) Dump THAT filthy water and rinse once. Refill with clean water and watch the bounce disappear! The TSP will leave a slightly alkaline resudue that is very desireable. The pH will be left about 1 or 2 ponts above the incoming water, typically 7. This is a good thing

tom_82

thank Ken,
We DON'T have any treatment yet! The water line has been bouncy all season. We had a main break, then a series of floods due to a faulty relay between the 150LWC and the feeder pump...I have the feeling that accounts for most of our gunked up water. The contractor suggested having the water treatment.
The Ph is up. If we drain the boiler completely and refill it with (fresh???) water or from the (return tank???)
what causes the ph to climb?
What chemicals are used to control ph?

Also, I keep thinking about the dirty water we might have due to those previously mentioned problems. Does one ever have a return tank cleaned to get rid of junk that might be in there?
Should we be blowing out the mudd__?__ forget the name) at the bottom of the boiler also to get rid of some of the junk?
Thanks
TOm

tom_82

just got off the phone with the water chem. co. all I got for information was that they wanted to put a nitrite based chemical in the boiler once a monthe for ten months to prevent corrosion...? she claimed the ph was fine at 10,8. hmmmmm
there are some suspicious characters out there trying to take my money!

Noel

Call George...

Here's the info to get ahold of Rhomar Water. They're very good.

http://www.rhomarwater.com/

Noel

tom_82

i just called george, i spoke with dwight. very helpful company.
He said the ph level in a boiler the size of our should be around 10 or 12. this is a burnham v11 series boiler feeding 30 units.
he suggested a corrosion prevention program as well. BUT a much more affordable one than the other company. They sell test epuipment so our super could do it...
I still don't know what to do but I'm gettin more info.
Tom

Brad White_9

Tom- Terry says here what

I was going to say and learned from Dan himself. A high pH (alkaline) tends to cause foaming hence a bounce in the water line and vinegar was the solution. Terry said too as did Dan that the Vinegar smell will show up in the spaces served (as will anything in the boiler water).

If Dwight at Rhomar says the pH is fine in the high range, I would defer to him. It is not an area in which I can claim first-hand experience, just that a good source cited the condition.

I trust Rhomar and that means Dwight and George.

EDIT: To be clear, as Ken says, a dirty system is your problem. It has to be cleaned. The chemicals I mention are to assist in that regard. Normally TSP works but the Rhomar gets stuff out and into suspension for more of a fresh start.

Brad

Unknown

did I miss something here?

Wondering if I miss something here. Has the new boiler ever been skimmed? May have to be skimmed and flushed more than dozen times and then checked the water content..... One or two times rarley enough on old system like yours...

Ken_40

Absolutely on the...

money!

Don't use any chemicals until you get whats there, cleaned out!

See my post re: TSP above.

tom_82

not a new system.
Boiler is seven years old, lacks venting, consumes over 35k a year in oil! we are trying to see if we can make it more efficient. Water line bounces a LOT, so the contractor is suggesting treatment. We also lack venting. Which comes first? Deal with venting or water?
Thanks

Ken_40

The absence of treatment is NOT

the problem!

The existence of fillthy boiler water IS the problem!

The pH as high as yours shows major contamination of the water, or perhaps, some yo-yo already DID TSP the boiler - and never came back to dump the crap it has loosened up.

Dump it and clean it before putting anything else in!

Ken_40

The water MUST

be clean. If you fix the vents, it will still prime and surge - possibly blowing out the brand new vents!

Best plan? Do BOTH ASAP.

Also, make sure the pressure never goes above 2 psi.

tom_82

one more thing.
Dwight suggested what Ken and some others are suggesting that the boiler get cleaned well first. He mentioned a cleaning treatment that can be put in to the boiler. Any thoughts about adding chemicals to aid in cleaning.
TOm

brucewo1b

Tom

See Kens post above about the TSP or might have to find a product called Mex those are the only two that you should use to clean the boiler first.

[Deleted User]

The only boiler chemical

company, in our area, I have any faith in specs max PH @ 10.5 on steamers. We agreed long ago that the only ways to treat our steam boilers is to add chems once a month, based on test analysis or, as Ken said, by metered connection on boiler feed water, also tested each month. Any other way almost guarantees priming & surging on cast iron steamers. Large volume steel steamers are more forgiving. Seems most chem. cos. are still in steel boiler country.

Agree. Clean boiler water side & flush returns. Vents too. Also. Over firing & improper near boiler piping can raise water line havoc. Might be worth your while to get someone who can evaluate the complete package.