KERplunk... (ME)

[Deleted User]

This device is intended for commercial, multi family apartment homes. In the course of air elimination, small amounts of make up water may be required. So long as it is little amounts being used slowly, there will be no issues. If it draws a substantial amount suddenly, WHAM, the device shuts off the water. We will install LWCO and LPCO on these systems just in case.

For SF dwellings, I still recommend the Pig, with LWCO and LPCO protection.

ME

[Deleted User]

Blow Out Prevention Device

Enjoy!

ME

Unknown

Ya that`s neet too,

Hey Mark,, how did you make-out with the vents through the steel roof? I think you posted that about 1 month ago. Find a solution?

Dave

gerry gill

what stops the backwards

swing check disc from falling shut by gravity? i'm not sure i understand this drawing right..is the backwards check supposed to be drawn the other way? my little steam knoggin is confused.

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bob_50

I agree with

gerry. I think da kerplunk is backards. I aint so sure it'd work even if'in it wernt backards.

[Deleted User]

Pressure...

The backards swing check is before the PRV. If there is a substantial draw of water, like say a ruptured line, or a popping relief valve, the significant flow would cause the check valve to close WITH pressure. BAM!

If someone closes V3, or the relief condition corrects itself and the pressure equalizes on both sides of the swing check it is possible for the swing to reset itself into the open, hanging position, but if they open V3 again and there is still substantial flow, BAM, it closes again and stays closed as long as the pressure down stream is less than the pressure up stream.

Make sense?

ME

[Deleted User]

details, details, detail....

It has to be installed in the vertical up flow position...

Like this..

It's not your water soaked brains that are wrong. It's mine:-)


NOW does it make sense? :-)

ME

rich pickering

Makes more sense now.

But you need to draw the hinge on the other side of the check.

I'll stop being picky now.

[Deleted User]

Rich...

It IS in the right spot. Think of it. If the swing check in a circ return is installed in the vertical down flow position, the gate is hanging downward via gravity. When back flow begins through the circuit, WHAM, the check valve closes. That's where I got the concept from. Some inadvertent misguided first year rookie plumber "showed me" this idea :-)

Whats confusing you (and others I suspect) is that the flapper check looks like it is already closed. I'll fix the drawing and be back later.

ME

rich pickering

Not confused

I know what you want to accomplish, and it works.
I do the same thing with gravity recirc lines, but I hang the check on a 45. Its easier for the gate to close than if it is straight up and down. Won't work at all if it is horizontal.

What was confusing is you have the check drawn with the flow going towards the prv.

Steamhead (in transit)

I wonder

why I didn't think of that?

Have to give it a try here at the house.....

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[Deleted User]

Good point Rich...

If I had the check vertical, I might have to rename it to KABLAM instead of Kerplunk...

I'm not sure that a 45 degree angle might not be too much. Maybe 22-1/2 degrees from vertical? I don't want the valve to be fully seated, just want the flapper hanging near the seat so that in case of a quick surge of water, it will slam shut.

Thanks for the input.

ME

[Deleted User]

Do you have steam or hot water Frank???

If steam, it might not be a good idea. If hot water, go for it:-)

With steam, everytime you went to blow down your LWCO, it would lock up on you.

ME

bob_50

It is looking

better Mark. It might be tricky to get the size of the valve and the angle of the dangle just right. Google "excess flow valve" they make them from 1/4" to 20" we use to install them on hazardous material supply lines feeding chem. labs. Your idea would be a lot less expensive.

[Deleted User]

Tweaking....

will most probably be a neccessity 4 sure.

Here's an interesting device from Watts Regulator...

http://www.watts.com/pro/whatsnew/whatsnew_floodsafe.asp

Thanks for the input Robert.

ME

Steamhead (in transit)

Hot Water

yes that's right, Steamhead lives in a house with a converted gravity hot-water system. Whod'a'thunk? Well, that's what my great-grandpa had installed when he had the house built, and I haven't changed it.

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[Deleted User]

Nothing wrong with that....

At least you are comfortable!

ME

Steamhead (in transit)

It has served well as a testbed

Pumping Away, circulator sizing and some other things as well. Looks like that tradition is going to continue.

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[Deleted User]

Unresolved vent issue...

Still waiting for the roof to clear itself of snow so we can safely access the termination.

ME

[Deleted User]

More like...

tink...

We installed and tested our first unit yesterday during a transition on an apartment complex conversion. Worked like a champ.

Will post pictures this weekend.

ME

Cosmo_3

how did you know?

Sometimes when I am working I think of tinkering with an idea. Unfortunatley I wear too many hats in my business and I have no time.

Mark, I have already tried the flood safe idea with a freebie I got from my local Watts rep, and it works great. I am sure that if we ask enough there should be a valve manufacturer to make this device for us. It is a needed item, to protect the guys who end up with a water damaged "Buck" sitting on their desk talking about dropped insurance....

Great idea Mark. You my friend will surely end up as a distinguished member in the Pantheon of great wetheads one day.

Just don't make it soon!!!


Cosmo

[Deleted User]

Thanks Cos...

My little brain never stops...

Ya just never know whats going to pop out of it next:-)

Always thinking...

ME

gerry gill

mark, did the check

get mounted at an angle? this intrigues me..pictures yes please..i'm all eyes and ears..

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[Deleted User]

Gerry...

Yes, at a 45 degree angle, backwards, but not upside down.

On this job, we used a 1/2" make up /excess flow preventor system. I think that it would be wise to keep the bypass open for a week for air elimination. Once stablized, close the bypass and you are in the safe mode.

I am going to build one up at the school labs, hook it up to a flow meter and determine the thresholds for 1/2", 3/4", 1" etc. If my gut serves me corectly, the smaller the check, the lower the flow required for actuation.

I can see this becoming an insurance company requirement...
and possbily eventually a code requirement. Water damage is the number one claim for casualty insurance companys. Most insurance companies exclude work on high rise buildings because of this. I know ours does. We're not allowed to work on anything higher than 4 stories.

I'll be back there fine tuning cascade controls this TUesday and will get the finish pictures then.

In the mean time, heres the schematic my fitter used to construct it.

ME

gerry gill

Thats really cool Mark

> Yes, at a 45 degree angle, backwards, but not

> upside down.

>

> On this job, we used a 1/2" make

> up /excess flow preventor system. I think that it

> would be wise to keep the bypass open for a week

> for air elimination. Once stablized, close the

> bypass and you are in the safe mode.

>

> I am

> going to build one up at the school labs, hook it

> up to a flow meter and determine the thresholds

> for 1/2", 3/4", 1" etc. If my gut serves me

> corectly, the smaller the check, the lower the

> flow required for actuation.

>

> I can see this

> becoming an insurance company requirement... and

> possbily eventually a code requirement. Water

> damage is the number one claim for casualty

> insurance companys. Most insurance companies

> exclude work on high rise buildings because of

> this. I know ours does. We're not allowed to work

> on anything higher than 4 stories.

>

> I'll be

> back there fine tuning cascade controls this

> TUesday and will get the finish pictures

> then.

>

> In the mean time, heres the schematic my

> fitter used to construct it.

>

> ME





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gerry gill

Thats really cool Mark..

I've got to give this a try..thanks for shareing that with us..

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[Deleted User]

Here's your picture Gerry...

Enjoy!.

I tested it numerous times in front of a bunch of factory engineers touring the job today, and they said "PATENT IT!!"

I suppose I should...

ME

gerry gill

thanks Mark

thats the cats meow..opps, did i just show my age? any idea of the flow rates yet?

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Cosmo_3

Suggestion

It might be better to break up the back-flow preventer/pressure reg combo and make the back-flow preventer the first, most upstream item.

Yea I know PAH

I will have to give it a whirl on the next boiler job I have.

Mark, you are a genius....patent that baby QUICK!!!!

Cosmo