Mod/Cons + salty sea air = ?

CC.Rob_2

What kind of HX? If aluminum, I would be even more concerned than with stainless. In fact, I shied away from an Al HX for just this reason (but with nothing other than a feeling and one rumor to inform that decision). I'm way more than a stone's throw from an arm of the sea, but we do get a lot of salty mist/fog/etc. that really does a number on Al things out in my yard. The idea of sucking that stuff into an Al boiler made me nervous.

Leo G_99

Just am in the process of installing a Mod/Con

right by the ocean. The cumbustion air intake is literally a 5 year old stones throw away from the salty water. I know from my past life as a plumber, there were certain manufactures that did not warrant their taps, sinks, etc. if they were installed in close proximity to the sea. This got me thinking about the heat exchanger in these boilers. Ya think that maybe the more chlorinated combustion air will be a problem for these units as time goes on? I know that all boiler manufactures say that the warranty is void if things like pool chemicals are stored in the mech. room.

Hmmm.......

Leo G

Ken_40

Let's see...

You take NaCl, H2O, O2 and N mix 'em all up with Hydro-carbon fuel and you get...

BEER !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guinness to be exact!

I'll right over lad!

Frosty mugs are packed

Brad White_9

Excellent Question....

Sodium Chloride in combustion. Mmmmm. NaCl when burned- I wish it made beer, Ken...

Seriously, I wonder about this. Maybe Scott Milne has sea-side experience over time? Steve Gronski in RI?

Anyone have a spare Mass Spectrometer handy? Mine is in the shop along with my particle accelerator and graphite cooled reactor...

ALH_4

Mod/Con Ale

I'll let Ken take the first sip. ;-) Viessmann's 316Ti stainless should be as good as it gets for this. I am not entirely sure of the chemistry, metallurgy, etc., but I have heard stories of Vitocells with sea water running through them for decades. Then again, you start evaporating and concentrating things and who knows what can happen. How's that for an "I dont know"?

Glen

mass spec?

novel method of combustion analysis!!! If a weak solution of salt & H20 (15ml/liter) is sprayed on a flame - it does change color to orange (Na). So if we had a method of observing the flame - maybe it too is orange from heavy seaside exposure. I would be more worried about the longterm effects of the halogenated ions present - I recall from my days of pipe fitting in pulp mills - that even low levels of Chlorine would rip out 316L piping and valves in a matter of months. Interesting question.

Brad White_9

It is not the salt water

so much as the breakout of free chlorine which could/will form corrosive chlorides as part of the combustion process.

I have used 316L SS plate exchangers for salt water cooled condensers, aquariums and salt water swimming pools without problems. The combustion process would complicate things.

EDIT: Now I have to get that old Patti Page song, "Old Cape Cod" out of my head.... dangit!

If you're fond of sand dunes and salty air
Quaint little villages here and there
You're sure to fall in love with Old Cape Cod

If you like the taste of a lobster stew
Served by a window with an ocean view.....

Unknown

Scott Miline?

Where is Scott? Haven't seen his name on the this site in awhile... Body frozen with warm feet on his new snow melting sidewalk?

hr

I have info

on a stainless mod con HX that failed recently. The rep claims if was due to the gas quality at the jobsite. Of course I have no control over the gas, nor do any of the installers.

The manufacture of the product is on the line to make the product perform with the gas (gases)we have, in my opinion.

Now what I do know on this failed unit, since it is in my former home in Utah... It sits right on Parleys Summit in Park City, and they salt the heck out of that interstate 80 these days. It wasn't uncommon to see that salt spray in the air around our shop. It was killing trees in our yard 12 years ago. So I can see where high levels of salt air inhaled could possibly be a problem. I also know they use other chemicals these days for road maintenance, some is now in a liquid form that is used before the storms hit. I'm not sure of the chemical make up of those products?? It sure does turn into some dust clouds when it dries.

However they have had 2 others HX failures that are not located in the salt air spray in the same town. So now what? Is it a gas quality issue? And if it is how to handle it. Gas softners?

And I thought inhaled bugs were an issue At least they didn't attack the stainless. Not yet anyways.

We are what we eat and inhale. Same with boilers, I suppose.

hot rod

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Brad White_9

See Glen? You Get It!

Thanks for seeing what I see.

ALH_4

combustion air

It sounds like mod/cons are pretty catastrophically sensitive to even low levels of any chlorine-containing compound.

I have a list I got from Viessmann that mentions possible sources. I remember wondering about a few of them because of the very low potential for the combustion air to contain significant amounts. Fabric softener? How would that get into the boiler? I guess it would if the dryer vent was very near the boiler intake. But how much does it take?

I have heard of installations near large numbers of cattle having trouble, and we all know what that combustion air contains. Even dust from gravel roads can result in mud in the heat exchanger, and I know of no intake filter available for any mod/con. It's a little before my time, but didn't Glowcores have intake filters?

chris_86

Dear Leo G.,...

I'm sorry that you ask a serious question and you no doubt have noticed that many respond with stupidity and sarcastic humor to justify their own ignorance. There are many manufacturers’ representatives and wholesalers with a lot of time on their hands that lurk these web sites. They have a little clic and an agenda to protect their interests, if you search their names on this web site you will clearly see they respond in a typical manner over time.

I have done a lot of installs on the coast both in Mass. and Cape May and not noticed much in the way of corrosion except for the Munchkin brand, the control board is in the air path and you won’t find much argument about this as many have noticed this corrosion and build up which eventually causes this unit to fail. Although the company, if you do a serious amount of complaining will supply a new board, to the wholesaler, if you have an account with a silly core purchase policy...eventually you get reimbursed six-nine months later, if you have complied with the paperwork! Unfortunately many of the other mod/cons have only been on the market a limited time and no-one has any data about salt air. So if anyone responds otherwise they just don't have the data to support their marketing opinion. But they are very opinionated to sell as they have a financed investment they represent. And lots of free time during the day.

I do have a number of WM cgi and Burnham gas boilers on the Nantucket shore and they have taken a beating due to the salt air, but this is ten years later. So I would imagine any equipment will take a corrosion hit over time, the mod/cons being no different.

hr

combustion air filters now ship with

the Polaris. I'd like to see this option, possibly requirement on all the brands. I'd much rather service a throw away filter then pick bugs out of a burner matrix. Again!

I had a Voyager installed in a customer's home that had an appetite for lightning bugs in the summer months. They would hover around the concentric vent and get the ride of their life. That's essentially a vacumn cleaner on the roof We added that ceramic sock to the burner to help keep them out of it.

hot rod



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[Deleted User]

That's funny...

I recognize almost everyone that responded to Leo G's question, and not one of them looks like a manufacturers rep to me...

Got hidden agenda?

ME

John Van

Magnesuim Chloride

The active ingredient is most likely Magnesium Chloride. It's pretty nasty (i.e. corrosive) stuff. I'm an engineer working on truck transmissions. The mag chloride is giving us fits. It is a lot harder on steel than aluminum. I don't have much experience with stainless materials.

Perry_3

Hot Rod

Now that is interesting.

I recall looking at one companies SS Boiler HX and just from an engineering standpoint pointing so some spots and saying... It's going to fail here, here, and here.

I wonder if the company involved with your failures is the same one that I declined to consider...

We should really talk and compare notes...

Perry

Kevin G_2

true

Looks like someone has a lot of time on there hands.This thread has had many good replys. and most of them with what looks like an engineering back ground. Bash away.
I wish I could hear the whole story from another side. Sounded like a scam to me.