Can this really happen for real?

scott markle

Its good to see some conformation of my own opinions about radiatec. I too have had some would be clients led to believe that these open loop systems are a good choice. Granted this is simple approach which people with limited knowledge could probably implement on their own.

My own introduction to radiant heat was a with a polaris based slab heat system that I installed 17 years ago in my own house. (I had the common sense at the time to keep my heat and hot water separate). This was real learning experience. I was on my own, some "professionals" I questioned at the time didn't believe that radiant would even work. In the end I learned a lot from this system. One of the most important of these lessons: proper regulation of high mass radiant heat requires more than a simple indoor thermostat turning a circulator on and off. Also even though the polaris was impressive in it's efficiency it was not well suited for the heating application that I placed it in. Not having an differential adjustment and being oversized for the house the unit short cycled terribly.

One thing cool about the polaris. it maintains condensing efficiency at DHW production temps. I don't believe that most mod con boilers paired with indirect tanks can stay solidly below condensing thresholds. However it's a pricey unit and unless somebody is going to be using a lot of hot water it would be hard to justify.

Back to radaintec, they are promoting inferior designs because they can be easily implemented by homeowner do it yourself types. Prehaps an open loop system might make sense to somone with limited means, if they understood it's limitations. What really kills me is that people are basically being lied to ,not informed of the health risks, lousy thermostatic control, bad ideas like using incoming water for cooling in summer, and how solar panels can be "simply" added to the heating system.

With all the advances in this field in recent years ,mod cons, affordable outdoor reset controls,injection mixing, proven O2 barrier pex tubing, press fittings. etc. How does Radiantec stay in business, They are selling outdated hack ideas , and overpriced materials that are readily available at any local plumbing supply house.

Steven Gronski

And this guy is a doctor..........

Hey guys, I am comming in under an alias, to protect my self, just in case some one wants to sue over this, but some of you that know me probably know who I am by GPH. The links below were sent to me by a customer who I gave a price to on new plumbing and a radiant heating system. He said the plumbing price was fine but that my radiant system, which was Uponor joist and quik trak, A Vitoden and a Vitocell 53 gallon domestic hot water maker, was way to expensive for a radiant heating system for his new home. So I inquired to what he had been quoted for other systems, He told me that he was quoted a Viega system with a Triangle Tube Prestige boiler and a 60 gallon Phase III domestic hot water maker. Then he told me he was quoted on a Radiant Tec System with a Polaris hot water tank, and that would heat his 2300 sqaure feet of home and make enough hot water for his needs, which includes a master shower with 3 body sprays, a deluge rain head shower head in the middle, 2 shower heads at each side of the shower, and a hand held shower spray, or fill up his 120 gallon jacuzzi tub. So he tells me that I got the plumbing job, but not the radiant heating job.Then he asks me if he buys the Radiant Tec stuff if I would install it? I told him that I did not think the Radiantec System would keep up with the hot water demand and that an open direct system is a legionaires disease waiting to happen.I also explained to him about zone control, zone valves and 1 circulator vs all those pumps that radiant tec wants you to install ,the ability to be able to balance manifolds properly,out door reset,etc. I also told him I dont want to be liable for its operation if I did install it,also knowing the local code official in the town he wants to put this system in would never approve of it. He told me that that was fine, and I could start the plumbing which was suppose to be the end of this week. So anyway, he sends me an email today saying that he is hiring some one else to do the plumbing and that this guy will install the Radiant Tec system as well,along with these links. I am interested to know if whats in these links can really happen, and are there any code officials out there that would approve of this with out a fight.

http://www.radiantec.com/codes-approval/index.php
http://www.radiantec.com/codes-approval/official-problems

Al Letellier_9

can this happen

Darn sure it can happen. If you didn't have a signed contract, he can call the shots. If you did, consult an attorney. But the long and short of it is this...good ridence to the guy. I would have walked away long before this. Even if I was hurting for work, I wouldn't work for someone like this. Learn from it and move on. ( I would be sure to notify the local code guy about it, just don't go into specifices, just tell him to keep an eye on it.

Steven Gronski

I knew he could...

I knew this guy could tell me not to do the plumbing and get some one else any time he wanted with out the signed contract,thats not the issue, the issue lies in those links I sent at the bottem of the page...........That propaganda of Radiant Tec....Im just wondering about the one where they say the code official HAS TO LET YOU USE there product

Tim P._2

The ICC-ES report is a pretty powerful document. I just looked to see if there were any updates.

The report was re-issued in October 2006, looks the same.

Luckily NY will be going to the 2003 ICC codes at the end of April so that report won't mean anything.

Hopefully the 2003 codes will address this.

Tim

Tim P._2

Well, you peaked my interest so I looked at the new code.

[quote copyright 2005 ICC]
WATER HEATERS USED FOR SPACE HEATING

P2802.1 Protection of potable water. Piping and components connected to a water heater for space heating applications shall be suitable for use with potable water in accordance with Chapter 29. Water heaters that will be used to supply potable water shall not be connected to a heating system or components previously used with nonpotable water heating appliances. Chemicals for boiler treatment shall not be introduced into the water heater.
[end quote]

Basically, it looks like a compliant system. Maybe they figure you won't be drinking hot water? Dunno, wouldn't want it in my house.

Tim

[Deleted User]

Walk away...

Tell the good doctor to google Yates and Legionella.

Also, send him to www.healthyheating.com and have him take a serious look at what Mr Yates has written on the subject of Legionaires Disease on that web site.

You really don't need the problems associated with this guy. He knows more about your job than you do...

And I would be extremely careful about what you say in public about the internet purveyor. He monitors this web site and will threaten to sue at the drop of a hat.

Ask Jon Ruhnke if you don't believe me...

ME

chris_86

Bring it on,..

Let the scam artist known as "radient tek", sue any one...I'm sitting here waiting to see them in Court as is the inspectional services department in VT. If anyone has a doucumented case regarding radient tek has done feel free to send it to me. This wacko should be put out of buisness!!!

Read the codes section on this scam webb site..."the codes haven't caught up to this modern equipment," some of the things we sell have: "code problems." A scam is a scam is a scam...and it is a matter of time before we put this dangerous individual out of his practice of selling potentialy dangerous equipment.

Unknown

pardon my ignorance...

Where do you put the backflow preventer on an open combined system?

Noel

J.C.A._3

Noel....

I'm guessing "just before the non existant thermal expansion tank" would be the place,or right after the "main" inlet. That will protect ANYONE....as long as the water runs 24/7 !

Knucklehead is a great term. It should be used WAY more often. (I also like "bonehead, duface and s#!+ for brains")

BAIL NOW! SAY NOTHING and wait for the call to do it right. At that point...adjust your rates to compensate for the "boneheaded mistakes" that were made.Time is short, life is too...Make the cheapskate pay for his ignorance.

JMHO ! Chris

ALH_4

legionella again

From what I understand, the danger extends beyond drinking the water to the shower where Legionella bacteria may be inhaled.

J.C.A._3

AND...

Washing dishes...brushing teeth...washing hands... cleaning utensils. The list is endless. Ask M.E. He's been through the wringer and back on this one.

For a long reference, check out any of his posts with the graphs from his heating system. Notice the difference in the domestic H.W. temps between the first posts and the latest. Lessons learned???(THE HARD WAY ladies and gentlemen!) JCA

[Deleted User]

Link...

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=73831&_#Message73679

ME