My dearest Uponor......................(hb)

heatboy

………I’m trying to understand why, after Wirsbo had built itself into the industry leader, you would just arbitrarily destroy the company and send many of the people who made you down the road. I know, and am friends with, several of them and I must say I am re-evaluating my relationship I have spent 15 years building with the people at Wirsbo. Yes, that’s right, it’s the people that had made Wirsbo the leader. Your product is great, but there are other good products on the market and I sense you think that because your product is so good it should sell itself. I thought that about my company so many miles of PEX ago, also. Newsflash: It aint so!

My first trip to Wirsbo was long ago when there were a total of three extruders in North America and I realize that you produce more PEX, now, in one day than I have undoubtedly installed during my entire career, so my opinion means little. When I start using someone else’s material, you won’t even notice. Just wanted to let you know that you may have started to unravel and once you get it, most of your core may be gone.

Warm Regards,

hb


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heatboy

You certainly owm me nothing, but....................

………I’m trying to understand why, after Wirsbo had built itself into the industry leader, you would just arbitrarily destrot the company and send many of the people who made you down the road. I know and am friends with several of them and I must say I am re-evaluating my relationship I have spent 15 years building with the people at Wirsbo. Yes, that’s right, it’s the people that had made Wirsbo the leader. Your product is great, but there are other good products on the market and I sense you think that because your product is so good it should sell itself. I thought that about my company so many miles of PEX ago, also. Newsflash: It aint so!

My first trip to Wirsbo was long ago when there were a total of three extruders in North America and I realize that you produce more PEX, now, in one day than I have undoubtedly installed during my entire career, so my opinion means little. When I start using someone else’s material, you won’t even notice. Just wanted to let you know that you may have started to unravel and once you get it, most of your core may be gone.

Warm Regards,

hb


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Bob Bona_4

I have

quite disappointed myself in Uponor's MO. Don't get me wrong, John Barba, Dave Holdorf, and Wes are great, it's other 'tings.

Surly, apathetic and clueless tech support. HCT or advantage member? Doesn't matter to these folks that you've invested loyalty and $ believing in a company.

I've done a bunch of trade shows promoting solely Wirsbo. The first year, I tried to send in for co-op. The co-op return was embarrasing and I won't mention what it was. The next few years were a struggle to obtain materials relating to promotion (except printed promo direct from Wirsbo). I was able to get the Northeast distributor to lend me a backdrop the first year with all the Wirsbo jazz on it, but the following year it was like pulling teeth, and was told by the distributor this would be the last time they would lend me the stuff because "they don't do that, and they are expensive" Would you know that that display sat in it's case at my wholesaler for at least 6 months after the show? A distibutor problem? yeah, but...come on.

I did probably about 4-5 shows after that sans backdrop or comp reimbursment. Too many hoops to jump through and no recognition to bother with the measly comp. My displays that I built now sit in my shop gathering dust. I don't do shows anymore. I've got some full page ads using solely the Wirsbo name in some architectural porno, and it's doubtful I'll see any comp for that. It's my understanding Uponor only allows for so much per year.

We won't mention certain 400 foot rolls of 3/8 PEX cut in half out of the box with a one foot sleeve stapled over the cut part. We won't talk about the "1/2" multicor fitting that is so far out of tolerance it won't go into the multi. Let's not even go there with bagged QS20 fittings missing ferrules. At least if the stuff was reasonably priced it would soften the pain a little.

I have had to take a good hard look myself at loyalty.
It's not just about selling the most PEX.

Thanks for bringing this up Jeff, and thanks for letting me vent.

Kevin Koenig_4

simply airogent.

Well. If it makes you feel any better. These guys were the only game our area 12 years ago. They owned the market. They eventually copped a huge attitude and tried to manipilate there dedicated sales reps who made them what they were at the time..Somehow thinking they were immune to the actions of these hard working people . So, today they have nothing. I am currently eating there lunch on a daily basis. K.

Ken_40

A classic case of...

Market domination gained through huge financial investment/costs(underline HUGE) within a hypered sales budget (rather successfully I might add) based on expensive marketing campaigns, resulting in the desired market share growth and...

A after those huge marketing investments, the bean counters suggesting it is time to turn off the expensive marketing effort (which cut into profits - big time), and harvest the rewards of product leadership, while cutting the marketing budget (thinly masked as customer "support") - and simply sit back and watch the cash register go,

CHA - CHING

Milton Friedman, where are you when we need you?

Bob Bona_4

eloquently put

as usual Ken.

ALH_4

Uponor

I know nothing of the situation. Is Uponor replacing some of the Wirsbo people with Uponor people as often happens in this situation? or is it downsizing of the American staff that is no longer needed?

It is absolutely true that a company is defined by its people, not the other way around. Competing based solely on the products could be difficult, given that there are several competitors with very similar offerings.

Troy_3

uponor

Who would like to wager that big box stores are next. One doesn't need much knowledge to sell a sku. They already sell the big wholesale market. Why not cut the staff and go after retail? Anybody?

[Deleted User]

Jeff...

Who else has hit the road??

ME

Ken_40

Home Depot.

Now that I'm almost retired, I spend lots of time watching CNBC. The story about HD dumping its "supply biz" interested me.

There was also talk of them not only subbing to contractors who do PHCC, but actually entering that market in some areas. They have already begun being contractors in a few states doing beta testing of that potential.

Looks like they took a hit and now are re-thinking the venture.

Here's the link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070212/bs_nm/homedepot_dc_1

Paul Pollets

Concerns

Jeff, I've been with Uponor/Wirsbo for over 15 years, like yourself. Your concerns are my concerns. Since Uponor took over direct control with replacement of Jim Bjork, there have been many personel changes.

I'm not sure how effective these changes will be...we'll have to give it some time. If one looks at the corporate name change as an example of Euro creative marketing, I'd be very concerned. Any company that brands a name and spends millions doing it, than changes it to an unfamiliar name that has no connection to most N. American contractors....well, enough said. These decisions were not made in Apple Valley.

I strongly disagree with Ken's view. This is not about "massive marketing". Uponor greatly expanded their capacity by adding extruders (and new warehousing), to the tune of 1/2 mil each. This is called capital expansion, not marketing.

I'd call the new VP, Anders Toll. I'm sure he'd take your call and love to hear your views. I plan on calling him myself in the near future. There is also a new "Customer Loyalty" manager....I'm sure Jane would also love to hear from you. No sense having the title if you can't do anything about your best customers!

Put your input into the company and help make it better. Of all companies in the RFH biz, Uponor/Wirsbo listens best. We've lots at stake. So do they.

Paul

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Ken_40

You wrote:

"I strongly disagree with Ken's view. This is not about "massive marketing". Uponor greatly expanded their capacity by adding extruders (and new warehousing), to the tune of 1/2 mil each. This is called capital expansion, not marketing."

Now Paul, do you actually believe that kind of investment, expanding production by huge multiples was based on some vague, unfocussed whimsical production activity alone, WITHOUT any plan or need to have a market into which to that investment would be sold - without an equally huge investment in marketing?

I have no idea what your smokin', but 'hydro' would be my first guess!

Paul Pollets

Not Hydro

Marketing is related to advertising or promoting a product. Forecasting sales and production is different. Uponor has a very good idea what they'll need month to month, and they also know who their market is, like any other large company.

Most Fortune 500 companies spend 10-15% of gross sales on advertising/marketing. There is no company in the entire PHC industry in N America that spends even half that amount. If they did, you wouldn't be hearing complaints about reduction of co-op dollars. There would also be far more "user" and national recognition of HW or RFH, as the more efficient means of heating, if national marketing was a priority over contractor-based marketing. I would think that Uponor has spent far more percentage-wise than any other heating manufacturer to advertise/market or train. But does it matter? BTW, the company is publicly traded, so a little research in the prospectus should give you the real dollar amounts spent.

The quality of the relationship often has more to do with product sales and selection, than the individual manufacturer. We buy from people we like. Usually. If the deal looks better elsewhere, than many go elsewhere. This is one market where there are many choices. Too many, from my perspective. Shouldn't we be reading the whole book, and not just the cover?

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Leo G_99

HB

one word - Watts.

Best damn move I've made!

Leo G

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

interesting observation

RE: it's the people

The article I read today about HD & their foray into the wholesale thing noted it's vastly different from their normal "retail" operation as it's no longer based on price, but rather, on relationships with people.

I like the Wirsbo/Uponor products & I like others too. We use a wide variety of products based on two essential things: the people behind the products; and the best fit for the application.

It's been sad to witness companies we like dash themselves on the rocks while casting off the folks we have grown to trust, often implicitly, for reasons beyond (certainly my) comprehension.

Dan Foley

Uponor

I don't know the inside story but count me among the disappointed. Sure, change is inevitable in the business arena - it happens in our own businesses every day. It is distressing when so many people who I respect and have helped me immeasurable are either gone or have been re-assigned without much of an explanation. -DF

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Ken_40

Paul,

You've missed the simplest, most basic point - yet again.

"Company's establish markets - through marketing."

You can use all the tortured logic you want; but, when the cost of marketing exceeds the bean counter's formula of what it should be (and in Uponor's case, it is heavily dependent on customer service [and things like your fishing trips]). And that formula is based on whatever criteria he is mandated to follow, employees who perform customer service will be eliminated.

Ken_40

I don't see how anyone...

could disagree!

The name of the game is to make money. If you honestly believe that to be viable and profitable you need to reduce customer service, or re-direct your focus by scrubbing out a divison that isn't panning out, amen!

Losing a battle in order to survive, and perhaps thencome back another day and win the war? Home Run!

We've all been there and done that in one way or another.

GrandPAH's right.

Ragu_5

Any posts from Uponor?

I'd like to see a dialog on The Wall; it's always encouraging to hear from manufacturers here.

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

maybe it's because

we're so close to the fire, its heat cannot be denied. Let me explain:

Customer service and its related consequences may seem so far removed in a corporate environment - like HD - that others might be tempted to cut back or eliminate those positions. No doubt the affects of such moves are not immediately felt.

For a service business like ours (the collective we), we see immediate consequences if our customer service level changes. We can also turn on a dime if we find there's something that can be changed to improve our customer service. For we service contractors, it's literally do or die!

I'm not wishing bad times for anyone, but I freely admit I liked seeing the note in the HD article that confirmed what I've long felt was the core - customer service and personal relationships, rather than price alone. Kinda restores my faith in humanity a wee bit.

Bob Bona_4

correct

lack of customer service is felt immediately at the end user and is like a cancer.

If businesses would just adopt a sense of urgency...

hr

what I am seeing and hearing

is that with new corporate leadership always come change.

Suppose the new CEO feels the industry should be doing contractor training via associations, etc. It may be what the new CEO is familiar with in his former position, perhaps even in another industry. He then starts to cut or dismantle that part of the company offerings, and shift the focus around a bit.

Which seems odd because it looks like other competitors (radiantly speaking)are cranking up their in house contractor training budget and offerings.

It will be interesting to see which plan pans out best.

I see the current issue of the Wholesaler has 3 huge Uponor help wanted ads. Almost a full page worth One for a position in Florida. Fire sprinkler country if I'm not mistaked :)Looks like a change of focus?

hot rod

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Bob Bona_4

all I know

is that Uponor seems to be slipping a little behind vs. other competitors. Take PAP. They discontinued that funky fitting arrangement last year. They have limited fittings when it comes to PAP.

If you take Viega and see that you can hand crimp up to 1" whereas Uponor you are limited to 5/8" before having to invest in a $2400+ tool, it becomes a little hard not to look around. In a nutshell, there seems to be better options at this point.

Ken_40

Sadly...

A sense of "urgency" IS the reason coroprations reduce service related to marketing; the insatiable "need" to reduce labor costs, which then become profit centers in their own right - and with no tangible benefit (when looked at in this way) - the bean counters look at the Balance Sheet and see what they deem as disproportionate expense in payrolls for the customer-support-division of marketing - where customer service becomes the step-child of sales, scorned and dismembered.

Bean counters look at numbers, not people, details and "support" become expendibles and are not perceived as true sales generators. Salesmen are perceived to be the true engine that drives corportae profits under the aegis of, Sell Sell Sell and profit, profit, profit will ultimately result.

Classic examples? Dell, Verizon Wireless, your car dealership, the bank you've done business with for ever...

They all lack customer service that meets even the minimal basic needs people want and need. Yet sadly, they all make lots of money. Lots!

The bean counters are correct. We are wrong.

Or are we ):-o

ALH_4

In my opinion

Good service is...

1) Prompt

2) Friendly

3) Positive

4) Knowledgeable

...in that order. A tall order.

Sadly, #1 is most neglected, yet is also the customer's first impression. I do not ask everyone I speak with to have instant answers to all of my questions, but knowing where to find this information quickly (back to #1) is critical. Harry Beckwith's books give many excellent illustrations of why nearly all businesses are about people, not products.

Chris_88

Good Luck

In the past it was always John Barba or Tim Doran that would take part in the Wall. Tim is no longer with Uponor and with the current unrest I would think it unwise for John to stick his neck out. I doubt that anyone at the highest levels even knows what the Wall is or has any understanding of it's broad reach.

hr

I think you would be surprised, Chris

how many high level folks in our industry monitor "The Wall" I've spoken with at least 4 CEO's in the past month that have commented on "Wall" posts

All of the ones I have spoken with deal with the issue and comments regarding their products, not necessarly via a post here however.

It would be intereting to know the % of read only visitors here, based on the number of hits Dan has indicated.

hot rod

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Chris_88

Not thinking that broadly

I wasn't thinking about the industry on whole just Uponor. I realize that many high level folks visit the Wall regularly and in one way or another contribute a lot. I just doubt that any of the big dogs at Uponor fall into this group. BTW, does anyone know where Ken Andersen ended up? He was the regional manager here for several years and a great guy.

Supply House Rick

Uponor, long live the king

We have sold Uponor/Wirsbo products for years. They have been one of the classiest, professional and responsive companies we represent.

If you haven't been to Apply Valley for training, you are missing out, it's an experience you would remember the rest of your life. John Barba is the KING.

Has your life hasn't changed since they decided to move management in a different direction? It's still the best product with the best people. They have the right to remove people just as you do in your own company. There is always two sides of the story...

Rick

heatboy

Let's see............

.....if you still feel that way in 6 months, Rick. I have always thought Wirsbo to be number 1, by far. That was Wirsbo and that company no longer exists. As far as Apple Valley goes, been there 10 times since 1995.

Wirsbo was a radiant floor heating company. Uponor, as we will come to learn, is just interested in selling pipe.

"I got people", or at least, I used to.

hb

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Troy_3

Uponor

The way I see it- if their service drops off, (which it has to) from letting go key people then they will be hard pressed to maintain their market leading margins. If it come down to just pushing skus then price is going to rule. Without the people how do you justify the premium price. I just don't get it. They have to be profitable, when you look at their prices. Maybe they are starting to believe their own superior slant. Time will tell.

Dan Foley

Uponor

I agree that the people that left were among the best in the business, not to mention good friends. They will be missed and hard to replace. The talent still there (JB, Ingrid, Cindy, Jackie, ...) are still tops in my book. While disappointed, I am going to try to remain open minded and see how these changes pan out. I'll hope for the best. -DF

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Uni R_3

Marketing 101

"Marketing is related to advertising or promoting a product." Actually, that's normally only seen as one aspect.

Most marketing classes will teach you about the 4 'P's. Product, price, place and promotion.

Joe Brix

So, who has left?

I know that Tim Doran is gone (I'd LOVE to hear the real story about it). Who else has left?

ALH_4

5th \"P\"

What about "P"eople?

I don't know the story, and apparently it will not be told in public. I wish those who are moving on the best of luck in making it a move up.

Supply House Rick

Man oh man

Are you guys in mourning? No one died for crying out loud. Walt Disney is gone does that stop you from going? If Dr. Viessmann was removed from power via a coup, would you remove your orange speedos and install Dunkirks? No! I tell you NO!
The Wall has changed. It has become a group of "negative nancy's".

Franz

Ken_40

Franz,

The negativity in YOUR post has the word hypocrite written all over it.

Think twice, post once.

Uni R_3

The 'P'eople are in the others Ps...

You need good people developing and supporting the product. The bean counters doing margin analyses to determine pricing and costing. All of the 'place' people and these the folks that serve the distribution channels. And also those directly in sales and promotion.

My point was that marketing is more than just advertising and promotion.

Supply House Rick

The wall

Was fun, light and informative. it's neither. bunch of hot heads waiting to talk instead of listening. No one can make a point without being attacked. Dan can't even take a vacation anymore. Must be a slow winter for some

Ken_40

I agree.

You did a pretty good job of attacking everyone who might disagree - already.

I'm sure your "concern" over Dan's vacation makes him exceedingly grateful to you. I know I'd be(;-o)

All of us are a little "slow," which is why we have nothing better to do than "act up" (at least in your eyes) while Dan's away. Thank you for reminding us all that we must be "slow" to post.

I'd rather be half-fast than slow.

But I understand your point, and as always, appreciate your thouhts and concerns.

hr

So correct you are Dan

let's wait a bit before we pass judgment. A very solid staff remains at Uponor. I suspect those that have left will still be very involved in our industry. Possibly in bigger and better ways?

Always the voice of reason, thanks Dan.

hot rod

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