Thermostat location--pros check this out

Gene_3

I FREAKIN WORK HERE

IT'S A TECH SCHOOL AND I'M ONE OF THE FREAKIN INSTRUCTORS

will someone {other than me} please explain why the thermostat for a unit must be in the area that that unit serves, AND NOT IN THE AREA THAT ANOTHER UNIT SERVES

I just had my students perform Heat Load Calc's on the area and look at ways/options to solve this as a class assignment.

I am not freakin kidding.

I am crying

Gene_3

Tstat location

Excuse me for venting, hopefully you will find this entertaining.

We have a building that was stores that is now classrooms,some units do several classrooms with one t-stat. Yep, there's the rub, different loads and people, 1 unit.

I cannot get anyone to listen to me, 35 years in HVACR, they listen to everyone else, I am ready to $%^&)(*.

Some electrician moved that tstat into an adjacent hallway that is served by another unit, so when that unit heats this one wants to cool and vice versa.

Now the people in the classroom are constantly turning that tstat way up or down to compensate.

So what do they do??

They change the tstat to one that will lock out but leave it in the hall in the other area.

Also the non hvac people have management so snowed that they believe them instead.$%^&*()

Any Wallies feel like commenting on this and helping me out????

Joe Brix

Everyone is the expert....

....except the hvac guy.

I get this more times than I'd like to think about from customers.

"My brother's friend works in a car repair shop, and he said there's no way my circulator should have gone bad!"

jackchips_2

You could

offer to move it to the proper location and guarantee double your invoice back if it doesn't work.

Money talks.

Jack

Vermonter

Or laugh maniacally when the bill comes! [nt]

Ragu_5

Hey, Starch....

Well, my aunt had a boyfriend who had a daughter whose cousin once worked for a one truck oil company here in Maine.

He told her and she told him who told her who told me the following: "If you have an outside oil tank in Maine, you can use #2 Fuel Oil, but you HAVE to add 1 gallon of Kero per 250 gallons of #2 in the winter, and you will never gell up".

Ain't they some smart! Guess who froze up today?????


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Ragu_5

Oh, Gene.....

Boy, do I feel for you! The academic world is a tough one, and my hat is off to you; I can't deal there.

I think your best bets are: Brad White, Mark Eatherton and Hot Rod (no particular order, guys); however, could you smart guys get this fella off of the hook? Thanks. Jack

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Vermonter

No no... the heating bill.... [nt]

Unknown

is this mac Donalds?

Sounds like mc Donalds' business training school... My local McDonald was torn down for and new modern crrappy looking building.. Its freezing in the temps from 50 degress to 90's outside... Kept asking the manger to cut back on the air cond and they said no can do as the thermostat is in the back off the kichten where its hot all the time... Told them its the wrong location as it can't sense where the paying customers are sitting ... Nope, they say, it was installed by the experts in the hvac.. Asked them to sit out here while eating during breaks... Nope, they have their own eating room... Dumba** clown they got braiwashin the kids...

kevin coppinger_4

reminds...

me of Dan's article a couple of weeks ago...GUS's control heat... I would leave the one t-stat in the hall as a fake and put the one that contolls it in a enclosure set up that works...see if anyone notices it....kpc

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ALH_4

Zoning

Have they ever heard of thermostatic radiator valves?

Jed_2

Staff vs. Line

Chain of command. Someone must have told the Sparky to move the T'stat, or did he do it all on his own? Why? Is Sparky Staff, independent contractor, Multi-disciplined (HVAC)? If independent contractor, who hired him? Is the "Management" of this school without technical acumen?

Some people have a lot to say, but nothing constructive to add. I suggest Dave Yates. I don't know Dave Yates (and he certainly doesn't know me), but from his posts, and reading his articles, he has been through the "Political Wars", which Gene's dilema seems to fit.

Gene, what did you and your students come with for a solution? I would be interested in that.

Gene, do you have access to the system? With 35 years of experience I would think so (are you tenured?). Kevin Coppinger has the solution. Dummy the offending T'stat. Of course, that may require some stealthy wiring modifications and procurement of the correct controls. Possible?

Sometimes you have to take the "above the law" approach.

Good Luck

Jed

realolman

If you will put on a tie

and travel 300 miles...you will become an expert. The only people who know anything are the people who have never set foot in the joint before.

35 years working here?... what would you know?

mark schofield

air handler?

If the unit is an air handler that use to serve one area and is now serving multipul rooms with the existing ductwork and one stat, I had the same problem in a school. The library was busted up into 4 rooms. But thr rooftop unit and ductwork stayed the same. Of course the loads were all different. So I put two sensors in (a Johnson Controls system), one in the coldest room and one in the warmest room. Brought the lines together and added a switch and would change it seasonally. I know, a very stupid way to do it. The next option in my case was to install individually controlled duct heaters in the feed of 3 of the 4 rooms. Like you, no one could/would understand why the system wouldn work. My final solution to the problem was to retire and go on SS. Works fine for me now. Good luck. You probably won't win this one.

Darrell

On the lighter side of a similar situation...I take care of an office building...three zones of rooftop AHU's...front and left side, back and right side, and middle. Kinda like a big circle. 22 women and a couple of guys from 18 to 60's work there. When I took the contract, the t-stat wars were on and I was there weekly to reset everything and conduct t-stat training. I eventually got to be friendly enough with the ladies to be honest with them about the "problem' with the heating system...it was hormonal! Now, all three AHU's are set to a different temp...64-66-68...nobody touches them unless they want to die a most painful death, and they move people from zone to zone! It's really quite funny...they have a party and everything to celebrate the changing seasons of ones tenure at the office!

Cliff Brady

Averaging thermosts

Don't thermostats/hvac controls exist that take an average of multiple sensors and try to work the middle ground. May not be the best solution, but may eliminate the extremes. I am too lazy right now to look them up, but I have run across them on the web.

jackchips_2

Sorry, Gene

> I FREAKIN WORK HERE

>

> IT'S A TECH SCHOOL AND I'M

> ONE OF THE FREAKIN INSTRUCTORS

>

> will someone

> {other than me} please explain why the thermostat

> for a unit must be in the area that that unit

> serves, AND NOT IN THE AREA THAT ANOTHER UNIT

> SERVES

>

> I just had my students perform Heat

> Load Calc's on the area and look at ways/options

> to solve this as a class assignment.

>

> I am not

> freakin kidding.

>

> I am crying



I reread your post and do not see where you work there.

Why not JUST MOVE IT.

Gene_3

thanks

I have worked with the averaging tstat controls before and found them to be as troublesome because majority rules.

The real stickler to me is that I have done an easy 1,000 of these type calls in the commercial field.

I have seen the zone diffusers as well and reheats really aren't in the budget. But it would be ideal to have a unit supply fresh air to all at 55 and then install reheats for each zone

There are 3 class rooms and 3 offices off this unit.

One classroom is Medical Asst, all women, allways cold

One is electrical but not used every day

One is CADD and has 24 computer stations, they overheat to @90, we figured for the bodies and computers{flat screens}

then you are left with 300 options depending on your outlook

I want to put the tstat in medical and lock it 70H 72C with the fan running all day, put a 2-3 ton mini ductless split w/low ambient control in the CADD room to control their heat, set and locked at 74C, also increasing the return from CADD so that CADD will heat the other rooms and save money

They are still convinced from an electrical instructor that the tstat should stay in the hall that is served by the next unit

Maine Doug_52

Having managed

several large buildings, I have resorted to fake thermostats also.

I suggest you write a one page summary to use as a handout.

"The heating and cooling and temperature control problems are caused by the following:"
- ---insert text here---

"These problems may be solved with the following changes to the systems and controls:"
- ---insert text here-----

Whenever the subject comes up and you are asked about it, you can hand out the one page document.

Have you ever gone to a school where PHAC is taught where the building works? Have you ever gone to an engineering college where the buildings work? There is a law of perverse opposites that rules here and can't be defied, like gravity.

Gene_3

yeah I've done that

what usually works best in these instances is to put the actual temp control in the return and have the blower run constant, because return air is room temp

I've done that alot when the main controls died as well, Honeywell makes a nice remote bulb temp control that you can wire the heat and cool to, used to carry 2 on my truck and reuse them, they come in handy when the "smart building technology" goes down the crapper

We had some York EZ zones that would go down too

I enjoyed hearing the tech help say "I'm sorry, we no longer support that hardware"