Which Munchkin and why?

Dave_4

Why can I buy a T80 for $2300 and the new Contender 80 for only $2078.

The contender delivers better efficiency. What is going on here?

Perry_3

Do yourself a favor

Why not buy a Vitodens for several times that + whatever installation cost and do better it just might be the best long term efficiency based on dollars expended over the years that you could choose.

There are reasons some things cost less.... and lessor yet... and its not because of quality componenets.

In the end you get what you pay for.

Of course there are also other boilers in the middle of the spectrum.

Perry

ALH_4

quality

I will agree with Perry on the quality point. However, I have toned down my Munchkin hatred over the past few years. My first take on the Munchkin was that it was a Coleman cooler with a European heat exchanger laying on a batt of fiberglass. They seem pretty disposable.

However these are the only boilers available in the 50MBH size. So what can you do? Who will make a good quality small mod/con?

edit: oops, I thought I had toned it down. ;-) Oh well, back to therapy...

Dave_4

Furthermore

This is for a small spec house in a vacation area of weekend homes. All my competitors, every one, is building using something like Weil McLain WGO oilburners, and heating with the cheapest baseboard emitters they can get. No outdoor reset. And, they are doing the work themselves rather than hiring heating pros.

Constantin

Curious claims...

... looking over the brochure, the claim is made that the unit can turn down 5:1 like the T50/80, yet the input gas ratings do not seem to support that. The MC50 seems to have a TD ratio of 2.77:1, the MC99, only 2:1. Perhaps the gas trains in the contender series are not as sophisticated as the ones found in the T-series?

I like the alarm contacts, along with an outlet for a condensate pump. Both are neat features. The 2" venting pipe requirements may also open up the use of mod-cons in a wider variety of buildings.

Whether to use a Contender or not, is a question I'll leave to others. I don't have a vacation home to worry about.

Uni R_3

Constantin, the 5:1 claim should say \"up to 5:1\"

I'll bet they claim the 5:1 because with the SuperStor tank and Vision controller the 50K model can bump itself to 80K for domestic. Given that neither of those two necessary items are standard, I find their claim to be on the sneakier side of marketing life.

Yeshwant

Can the Contender supply DHW without a SuperStor tank like the Vitodens Combi?

hr

Any boiler can supply instant DHW

by adding a plate HGX and a 3 way zone valve. That's all that the Baxi, Viessmann, Laars, MZ, and many of the others do.

If you use a mod con you would want to step up to high fire mosde when the DHW calls. Virtually all mod cons have this feature in the control.

You will want at least 80K boiler size to provide much hw this way.

The main drawback is the fouling of the HXon the DHW side. Either soften the water first or plan on a yearly acid flush and valve the installation accordingly. Webstone makes an excellent valve for Instantanous installs to allow asy flushing.

hot rod

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chris_86

spend a little more for...

any other brand. We are presently involved in some hud housing projects and the cost: parts: warranty: ratios are out of squew with the htp product line. In addition we have yet to see any one get a timely core refund! What this means is when your unit brakes down under the warranty, someone has to purchase a new unit at highly marked up prices...then roughly six-9 months lateer if you are deemed wourthy someone, not always the wholesaler, gets a pro rated refund. Why we stand for this I don't know!!! additionaly for the continuing fan failures in many instances they have clearly indicated installer error and don't stand behind their products. And if that's not enough some individuals have been reporting that there is a warrantey form that needs to be filled out, but you only get this form information after you have purchased a replacment part!

Brad White_9

Coincidence?

ALH_4

Or this?

Dark Helmet ;-)

Lurkin' Murkin'

In a frozen galaxy, far away...

The "Dark Helmet" termination screen (see in center) is attractive though - and no ice!

Dave_99

Munchkin Contender

Gene, the answer to your question at to why the Contender is less cost is:

1. The Contender models have a stainless steel heat exchanger, but the cover of the HX and manifolds are made out of a special GE polymetric material. This material afforts a lower cost than the SS manifolds and encasement.
2. The T models are ASME rated, the Contender is not.

Regarding the turndown ratio, please see pdf posted on website - www.htproducts.com. It shows 3 to 1.

Constantin

Thanks for the update.

The nice thing about the internet is how manuals and brochures can be updated instantly. When I read the brochure last week, the ratio was still 5:1. The new "3:1" ratio is still overstating the case based on the min. vs. max. input ratings on some models, however.

chris_86

In all seriousness,...

With the munchkin brand...they have gone from the first internet versions clearly stating no maintenance and no adjustments...this has changed into various policies depending upon which model and which printing. I have seen warranties from one to seven years as well as sneaking the yearly maintenance schedule for cleaning in there behind closed doors. We were severely burned by this closed door policy and back door switcheroo. You should be aware of this, I don't see this as a big internet plus. On the other hand some of the other mod/cons out there don't have cheep replacement parts either, but many other manufacturers have much more responsive mechanisms to resolve factory defects other than purchasing defective parts at cost.

If you plan on replacing your Munchkin in five years you will be better prepared for the sticker shock of parts. And who knows the Munchkin will clearly pay for itself…but the bill for the plumber won’t.


And Ya, I do have an agenda...and that is to publicize and correct cheap and misleading marketing so no others go thru, what we went thru and are continuing to go thru with an abusive and opressive trend in this industry.

Constantin

Chris,

That was a tongue-in-cheek reply to Dave. Last week, their brochure stated one thing, this week it states something different. It's pretty ironic to be "corrected" in this fashion by HTP, instead of them acknowledging publicly that their old brochure contained erroneous information and thanking us for pointing it out. Whatever.

As for the average life expectancy of a Munchkin, et. al. I stay out of that. I don't have one in my basement, I don't install them (just a homeowner), I have no stake in the matter.

Roy C

Good quality small mod con

Try an IBC 15-150 (15,000 TO 150,000 Btuh) 10 to 1 turn down.
IF you can get one.
Made in Vancouver Canada, they are selling every one they can build and are limiting their market area till they can crank out more product. A real winner. Quality AND performance. Higher end on the price scale.

Weezbo

Gene, if those are your competitors....

Then you have a poor opinion or yourself. Do not "buy In" to what "They" are doing and you will do yourself and the new owners of your home a favor. we have Over R-40 walls and R-68 lid..who Gives a rats what somebody lashes up on the cheap if it doesn't preform.

When someone buys one of your homes do you want them to be thinking in ten years...'dammit! That crummby heating system cost us a Fortune to operate?' and or..'I NEVER was comfortable from day ONE.' if you hire a monkey to bolt up your system you might get the same results....get someone who knows what they are about and let them do what they Know ..that way you can spend Your time doing what You Know how to do. that will produce the very best results and bottom line.