Viessman Boilers

RoosterBoy._12

hi Steve the first guy in the first picture. is he on the show called (this old house classics) he dose most of all the hvac jobs on that show? am i right?

thanks
Jason

Lisa Alajajian

Viessman Boilers

A Client recently asked me what I thought of the Viessman boiler.
I have not seen too many installed.
Anyone have any input?

Thanks!!

Brad White

About the best boilers made, IMHO

Viessmann (two s's, two n's) has a philosophy of not compromising on materials, finish and engineering. They also have a very "green" philosophy and think long-term regarding the entire cycle of production costs versus disposal costs of obsolete products.

This is not to say that other companies do not equally strive or have very nice products. Viessmann products tend to stand in a class by themselves. As with anything, you get what you pay for.

Some folks dismiss this as marketing and/or support other products which is fine. Competition is great in any industry.

Full disclosure: I specify but do not sell the product and have no financial interest in the company. I co-own a Vitodens and installed it.

Keep in mind the installer is at least half of the outcome though!

Ron Gillen

Vie$$mann

I disagree with Brad on the spelling of these wonderful boilers. You will be hearing a lot of good stuff by coming here for opinions. I believe that they are in a class of their own. We are in our first winter using outdoor control only and with the exception minor solar gain the temperature is dead on all the time based on the reset. It's almost magic how it does this in that at any given outdoor temp, the system temp may be higher or lower but room temp is always right on. The quality of manufacture is unbelievable and the installation, wiring etc.is very simple. (long time plumber, new to radiant) There are lots of options out there but they're worth a sober second look . They cost a little more than most for a reason, they are just better.

Ron Gillen

Vie$$mann

You will be hearing a lot of good stuff by coming here for opinions. I too believe the Vitodens is in a class of it's own. We are in our first winter using outdoor control only and with the exception minor solar gain the temperature is dead on all the time based on the reset. It's almost magic how it does this in that at any given outdoor temp, the system temp may be higher or lower but room temp is always right on. The quality of manufacture is unbelievable and the installation, wiring etc.is very simple. (long time plumber, new to radiant) There are lots of options out there and they are a little more expensive but I believe they are also the best value available

Steven Gronski

Viessmann is the best of the best

I say viessmann is the best boiler out there.I installed one in my home this past october.They may be the most expensive boilers, but you get what you pay for. Viessmann makes every part on there boiler, or has some kind of interest in the companies that make the parts for there boilers.Thus assuring the utmost product quailty, unlike alot of other brands out there that import a lot of parts and controls from everyone else to assemble there boilers. Not saying that is wrong, but you do not have the qaulity control over the other guys parts and every part that goes into the boiler that you put your name on.You also can not compare the quality of the parts and technology of the parts of viessmann boilers to any one elses in the industry, none come close in the condensing boiler field. I had the first hand experiance to go to Germany this past July and see the production of Viessmann Boilers from start to finish, and witness the production of many of the parts that go into the completeion of a viessman boiler, and I will tell you one thing, If something ever did go wrong, Viessmann will step up to the plate and take the responsibility of the product failure. The testing of parts, and boilers is incredible, and a 97% pass rate is unaccceptable by Viessmann standards, Unlike other boiler companys, where something goes wrong, its the other guys fault, there is just one big finger point that eventually points back to the boiler manufacturer themselves, and no one wants to take the blame or the monetary losses created to fix the issue.

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McKern

Move your sensor

If you have a good idea of exactly how much the MRT in your home is overshooting due to solar gain at a particular moment, try and look at your curve and find out what the outdoor temp should be at that moment. Then go out with an IR gun and try and find a spot that measures. Maybe find a few spots and check them under varying weather conditions.

You have to remember that your sensor IS effectively your fixed thermostat so it has to be placed perfectly if you want to maintain perfect indoor temps.

Measuring between that hard to find sweet spot (that gets just enough solar gain) and where you sensor is now should be the difference between where the outdoor sensor needs to be on the graph. They should map back and forth.

Constantin

... an interesting company indeed.

Viessmann is a prime example of the German "Mittelstand" industrial legacy. Similar companies include some of the finer machining, pressing, and other high-tech companies that survive to this day, despite operating from a high-cost labor and material price market.

Many competitors to Viessmann in the EU are parts of larger conglomerates, whereas Viessmann is a focused HVAC company. Unfortunately, the NA market is currently not attractive enough to make Viessmann import a greater scope of their product, we just get the highlights... and those highlights can be very interesting, depending on what kind of a boiler you "need" for a specific application.

For example, the Vitola low temperature boiler is nifty in that it can take just about any return water temperature, can be fired with oil or gas, can be serviced in 15 minutes, and that the (optional) upgraded computer system can handle up to 2 motorized mixing valves, giving you 3 water temps in the system with one controller, one outdoor sensor, etc. I have one, and Ms. Vitola has been giving me loyal service since her installation.

The Vitodens is a rugged, well-thought-out, modulating condensing gas boiler. Viessmann being Viessmann, they offer lots of accessories, such as venting systems, low-loss headers, condensate neutralizers, etc. to allow a installer to basically buy most everything from Viessmann to complete the system. Like the other Viessmann products, you pay a premium for the quality, durability, and engineering in the product.

The Vitocell 300 line of indirect water heaters is also interesting in that they are made of a very high grade of stainless steel, have a 8" clean-out port, and that their large HX offers fast recovery rates at a variety of supply temperatures (almost as efficient as the Smart series from triangle-tube). Unlike many tank manufacturers, Viessmann also publishes detailed charts, so that an installer can verify recovery rates as a function of flow and water temperature.

The tubes for the Vitosol 300 solar hot water heaters are made by Thermomax in the UK, but some of the Viessmann integration work (the header, the Vitosol controller, etc.) and the way it can all work with the rest of the Viessmann product line. Some installers here buy accordingly.

But is all Viessmann product super-premium? Not anymore, as Viessmann has decided to compete at lower price points with some of their other products as well. So you could, in theory, source most, if not all, of your boilers and indirect water heaters from one company and be able to offer a "good, better, best" set of solutions to your customers.

Whenever I have had to interact with Viessmann re: warranty issues, service and support, etc. I have been impressed with the courtesy, promptness, and the insights delivered by the folk on the other end of the line. That, despite being nothing more than a homeowner. Whenever technicians here have called Viessmann for advice, the fact that they weren't trained at Warwick, etc. did not deter the fine folk there from giving advice to them as well.

That is not to say that you cannot get good experiences or fantastic products from other companies. For example, the Megasteam and MPO boilers from Burnham are very interesting, the Monitor FCX has been operating as a condensing oil boiler in the US for years, Triangle-Tube make some amazing indirect water heaters, etc. There a wide scope of product to chose from on the NA market, and I would focus on which company gives you the best products and support in your specific geographic location.

At the end of the day, the quality of an installation is driven primarily by the installer/designer. The products from Viessmann are yet another tool in the toolbox that every installer/designer should carry around. Hopefully, the customer employs you to install the best solution, not specific brand names for the sake of having specific brand names in their homes. After all, boiler installation is a custom business, right?

ALH_4

Well said

I agree.

Who can say it better than that? I'm not going to try. ;-)

S Ebels

Those guys would be..........

From left, Richard Trethewey (SP) correct that he is the main HVAC/plumber fron TOH, Dr VIessmann himself, The guy in the black shirt and shorts..........I don't know if he wants his name published and last but not least, Ed Nordstrom, king of Viessmann in the US.

[Deleted User]

Please induge a slightly tangential question...

Some background. As a kid growing up in New York, while most peers drooled over muscle cars, I was always enthralled by Mercedes sedans. The ads that described their European Delivery Program were read and re-read.

It took until age 32 and more than a decade of savings from a young engineer's income, but my wife and I finally made our way to the delivery center in Sindelfingen. Took the factory tour (which looked much like Viessmann photos in this thread), picked up my shiny new vehicle, drove it around Europe for a month, then flew home and waited for the ship to arrive.

I kept it for 8 years until the repairs -- all performed by me -- got to be too tiresome. It was the most unreliable car imaginable. Even today, consulting Consumer Reports' Annual Auto Issue, Mercedes is the single least reliable brand. I've often said that an arrangement where Mercedes performed the top level design and Honda completed detailed design / manufacturing would have been perfect. My current vehicle is a 2003 Honda Accord. In 103,000 miles I've done nothing but perform scheduled maintenance and replace the battery, while getting an average of 37 mpg with an automatic transmission. End of background.

I understand that boilers aren't cars. After ME eventually installs my system in Colorado, Advanced Hydronics will be making an annual checkup visit. And there aren't any "Honda" boilers available as alternatives. But I'm really curious whether the Viessmann "Mercedes" is more reliable than its automotive counterpart. Both appear to have been designed as the ultimate in all dimensions of performance. In the experience of those pros who deal with them, what is the installed reliability of a Vitodens 200 really like?

Thanks for your input. There's no Consumer Reports "Annual Boiler Issue" to consult. :-)

Perry_3

Good question

And others will pop in to give you thier answeres as well.

Now I'm a homeowner who installed a Viessmann Vitodens and have been tracking the forum.

One of the reasons I installed it was it was reported to have less problems than other brands - and it is designed with major components that are outstanding and should last a long time..

At the same time I have been keeping an eye on people who post here about boiler problems... I have not seen anything yet to indicate any significant issues with Viessmann (quite frankly, this winter I don't seem to recall a single one).

On the other hand one other brand has had a host of problems (American made), and some others have poped up with occasional problems.

I think in this case the reliability is built in correctly.

Perry

JimH

thanks for the pic!

First thing I noticed is Doc Viessmann is drinking Pilsner
out of a proper glass! The guy exudes charisma.

Ein Prosit!

-JimH

ALH_4

yes

In approx 4 years of experience with the Vitodens, most of the difficulties with the Vitodens I have witnessed personally or heard from others involves the electronics.

I have seen a couple internal pumps that were stuck and just needed to be freed on startup.

I have seen a fair number of VR20's and LGM boards that did not seem to work correctly and when replaced worked fine. Sometimes the control has difficulty detecting the sensors initially. The order in which things are connected seems to make a difference.

I have seen one Power Module that didn't work properly.

One internal pump went bad after a few months of operation.

I think that is it. Overall, pretty good.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Very fair question. While I have little familiarity with German cars, I do have reasonable familiarity with other German products, including the Vitodens by Viessmann. If I had to compare Viessmann to another class of products, it would have to be German printing equipment.

Anyone with any familiarity of printing equipment knows that German equipment is the best around--it may take teams of Germans to train Americans how to use their advanced printing equipment, but the buyers know it will run (and be repairable) until rendered hopelessly obsolete. Their truly old stuff lasts centuries and I dare say is probably still in use (and treasured) for the finest work.

Again, I'm only intimately familiar with the Vitodens and have only been "inside" of some older, simple German printing equipment, but I see some similarities:

1) Exceptional choice of material that are most suited to the task regardless of cost.

2) Design that centers around fast and simple routine maintenance and easy service access.

3) An understanding that the best way to ensure the maximum life is the allow fast and simple routine maintenance and easy service access.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the feedback Andrew

Except for the internal pump that went bad after a few months of operation, are these all problems which became apparent during and you corrected as part of initial installation? How many Vitodens systems have you dealt with in those four years?

Thanks again!

scott w.

side note on car

Sal,

Just curious what was the make, model, and year of your car? I too, when young lusted for a MB. Bought my first one with 12,000 miles at age 33.
It is now 15 years old with 140k and have never had a breakdown. I can't even remember what the last repair was.

realolman

How could I get

more detailed information/

I went to the website and downloaded a datasheet from viessmann that didn't seem to give a lot of info about any electronics... The first thing I noticed is that it was rated in kW... I guess btu IS a british thing.
The datasheet showed some "computer assisted test" of the oil boiler. I wonder what that does.

The DHW seems to be a large part of the boiler. Is it really economical to heat DHW with oil?

Mike Kusiak_2

Sal,

You didn't happen to graduate from Lincoln High School, did you?

[Deleted User]

Sure did, WA2YGA

Hi Mike! Whatcha been up to in the 35 1/2 years since I last saw you at graduation?!? Hope all is well and that the cherry tree still produces abundantly.

[Deleted User]

It was a 1985 190D 2.2...

...with a 5-speed manual transmission. Although there is some variation between models, Consumer Reports' reliability records do consistently show problems across the line. No vehicle I've ever been acquainted with, mine or a friend's or relative's, has ever exhibited substantially different failure history than those April issues said to expect. Probably because they don't publish results if the number of survey responses received for a given model/year is too low for statistically significant analysis.

ALH_4

numbers

Yes, nearly all problems occurred in the first two weeks of operation if not at startup. Service was excellent after the sale, though we stocked nearly any part that might need replacement on a Vitodens. The company I worked for was involved in well over 50 projects using Vitodens boilers since late 2002. I didn't keep track. I am sure I have underestimated. It has become the boiler of choice. Cast iron boilers with outdoor reset controls are nearly a thing of the past.

Ted_9

Viessmann

Hey Steve, mind if I show my pics?

The first pic. Remember this one? Too funny.

The second pic, Rich, me and Dr. Viessmann. I was pretty tired.

The third pic, Good times with friends.





Massachusetts

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