Help CO Testing

Chris Hodkinson

Jim
Can you explain this again. by back away do you mean that my O2 should go up .5 to 1.0%? When my CO went up to 89 ppm and my O2 was 3.3% , I then increased the air to bring my CO down to 22 and my O2 went up to 4.5% ?

Thanks
Chris

PS
Also is there a list of training for the areas around NY State any place.

Chris Hodkinson

Help CO Testing

OK, since I got sick of my company waiting to buy me a digital tester I bought one myself, UEI 75. It has been a couple of years since I have dealt or really read anything about acceptable levels of CO and now it is time to catch up. I am looking for any websites or books that can help me get back in touch with CO and acceptable levels etc......

How low can anyone go, I know after a certain point you are hurting effeciency but I can't remember.

Any info. would be great. I know the best way to learn is enroll in a class, but my company will not pay for it so again it comes out of my pocket, plus the loss of salary for days missed. I don't mind reading books and browsing the web to get the info that I want, I just need a starting place.


Thanks in advance for all your help.

Chris

Mark Hunt

Chris


I am not sure what you mean by "I know after a certain point you are hurting effeciency"... Who told you that??

I'll help you along as far as I can via the internet, but at some point you have to get into a real class.

When I find a book on the subject I'll buy it for you. To date there are none.

Where are you located?

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Chris Hodkinson

location

> I am not sure what you mean by "I know after a

> certain point you are hurting effeciency"... Who

> told you that??

>

> I'll help you along as far as

> I can via the internet, but at some point you

> have to get into a real class.

>

> When I find a

> book on the subject I'll buy it for you. To date

> there are none.

>

> Where are you

> located?

>

> Mark H

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Chris Hodkinson

location

Mark
I am located in Lewis Co. Lowville, Croghan, Beaver Falls. Probably about 1-1.5 hrs south of Saranac Lake. I am just looking for general guidelines or should I say a starting point on what to look for, etc.... I just got the kit today and naturally I had to test my own boiler that the previous owner converted over to Natural Gas from Fuel Oil. Never had the provisions to check it before and I was suprised. Over 550 ppm CO. I increased the air to so now the CO is 21-22ppm but I am wonder what the acceptable levels are.

I will see if I can explain my statement about losing efficiency. I was told that as you increase the air to lower the CO levels, you are also decreasing the CO2 levels and increasing the Stack Temp. After you reach the lowest point for CO and you keep increasing the air the CO will not drop any farther but your stack temps keep going up and hurting effeciency. I hope that I explained it correctly or maybe I received wrong information.

Thanks
Chris

Chris Hodkinson

CO levels

What is an acceptable CO level when testing? 20ppm, 30ppm, 40ppm 100ppm etc....

Timco

I just got my copy of "Carbon Monoxide, A Clear and Present Danger" (3rd edition) put out by esco press (www.escoinst.com) This is more in depth and complete CO and CA book I ever imagined. It covers CO, CA and building pressures. GREAT read...I got mine through Rudy Leatherman @ Bacharach...A truely great man.

T

brucewo1b

Bacharach Training Room

http://www.bacharach-training.com/

Mitch_6

Training.

Besides Bacharach's web site you can try

nationalcomfortinstitute.com

Gas appliance service Timmie McElwain has some informational packages with similar information and a good price his Email is gastc@cox.net His basic Carbon Monoxide guide #7 cost me about $10.00 it is a bunch of photo copy's but the info is good and that is what you are paying for.
He can send you a list of what he has and buy it Ala cart.

Still hands on is always the best it helps you to interpret what you are actually looking at.

Mitch S.

Mark Hunt

Highest acceptable Co level

is 99ppm in the flue, air free.

If you find that the CO is rising, you have a SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS situation because it will not stop rising.

Efficiency.....well if you take the flue pipe off, the unit becomes 100% efficient since nothing will be wasted up the chimney. Forget about efficiency reading with testing equipment. The number is bogus. ALL testing equipment assumes the highest possible flame temperature to calculate efficiency and that NEVER happens.

Look at it this way, if you have a high CO number and CO is a by-product of incomplete combustion how "efficient" can the unit possibly be? You're not burning all of the fuel right? Incomplete. The analyser will show you how to get the burn where it is supposed to be and there is nothing else that matters. I don't ever look at the "efficiency" number on my Bacharach. The number is useless.

Stack temps: If you underfire a piece of equipment you will get low stack temps and high fuel bills yet the "efficiency" according to the analysers and charts will say that the unit is operating very "efficiently". If you were to remove an oil burner from a boiler and stick a cigarette lighter in there, the stack temp would be well under 100 degrees. Would that mean it is 100% efficient?

Glad you started this thread. Keep asking and I will keep answering.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

craig_4

CA

I am also looking for a combustion analyzer. At last job, used a Bacharach fyrite pro 125. Great piece of equipment. However it came out 3 or 4 years ago. Is there anything better, more reliable or just as capable. UEI, Testo, TIF and many others sell "similar" devices. Are there any pros or cons regarding model or manufacturer?

I. Wundermich

combustion analyzer choices

Kane May, Quintox if you have the budget, KM900 CO/P if you do not. Contact kirstyu@ueitest.com

Gary Reecher

Want more links here is a compilation of sites on carbon monoxide:


http://www.essex1.com/people/mechacc/carbon monoxide links.htm

Mitch_6

Links & Testors

tryed link from Reecher "great" spread it around kind of like an all in one link.

I have a TSI 630 Digital analizer from NCI seems to work good I have also herd a lot of good stuff from the newest Testo model I think it is a 330 but don't quote me on it.

Mitch S.

Mark Hunt

Testers


The Bacharach 125 is what I have been using almost since I started testing. It has the fastest response time I have seen on any unit which is vital for detecting CO spikes.

I have heard good things about the TSI unit from a trusted source.

Bacharach has been in this business a LOOOOOOOOONG time and I have nothing but confidence in their product AND their company.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Plumdog_2

gastc@cox.net

This address takes me to a cable company but nowhere else. What am I doing wrong? I asked on this site once about books and manuals and got no answers back; at least now I know that no books exist! Unbelievable! All these instruments and no books. I attended a weeklong class back in the mid eighties about combustion testing using a big Bacharach Instrument with analog dial on it. These two professors from an engineering college instructed the class and I found it most interesting; however the concept of dialing in combustion efficiency drove the oldtimers crazy and nobody was allowed to use the new instrument.

brucewo1b

You can contact Tim here

http://www.oiltechtalk.com/discuss/

Go to bottom of the page to his forum and you can email him from here also

Plumdog_2

thanks brucewolb!

Those professors told of a boiler that was part of TVA authority I believe that ate coal at the rate of a coal train traveling at 1.5 miles per hour continuosly.

Unknown

Plumdog

The address gastc@cox.net is my e-mail address. I do not have a web site. If you will e-mail me with your requests I will attempt to take care of you.

Jim Davis_3

CO levels

Adding air to the burner does not necessarily reduce the amount of CO being produced it may just dilute it more. Just demonstraed that with an over with the door open and the door closed. With more air the CO that was read went down, but the "air free" went up.
There is so much more to testing than reading a book. We have to educate ourselves and our customers. We must know the legal limits of CO versus what levels are actually unsafe. What levels can affect people. How can Ambulances cause even more harm? Why is the equipment producing it in the first place? What is the right way to fix it versus just covering it up with a bandaid? Should my CO corrections reduce efficiency of improve it? A defective oil nozzle can make high CO and opening up an air shutter can dilute it to a lower reading but the problem still exists and that will be found when the unit soots up. Why can following the Code actually make a job more dangerous? If you want to know just a little bit more than you know get a book. If you want to learn all you can about it you need to come to class.

jp_2

air/fuel

if he adds more air to the burner and if: CO goes down, stack temp goes up, CO2 goes up, are you still suggesting only air dilution?

use books, don't just read them!

Jim Davis_3

If you add air CO2 & CO both go down because because they are diluted with the air. The temperature may go up or down depending on how cold the flame gets. Initially on oil the flue temperature will go up because the gases are moving faster and give up less heat.

Chris Hodkinson

results

OK, I have been getting aquainted with my new tester on my furnace. I was simply amazed at how little movement is needed to see a noticable increase or decrease in CO.

Test #1 is the starting point that I left the boiler at right after I received my tester.

Fuel Natural Gas

O2 % 4.5

CO2 % 9.3

CO ppm 22

COa ppm 28

Flue T. 362

Ambient 51

Net. T. 311

Eff 82.1

Losses 17.9

X Air% 27.4

Test #2 I closed the air band about the thickness of a Thin tip sharpie marker.

Fuel Natural Gas

O2 % 3.3

CO2 % 10.0

CO ppm 89

COa ppm 105

Flue T. 364

Ambient 51

Net. T. 313

Eff 82.5

Losses 17.5

X Air% 18.7



Test # 3 I reset the airband back to its origional position and then opened the thickness of a fine tip sharpie marker

Fuel Natural Gas

O2 % 5.1

CO2 % 8.9

CO ppm 14

COa ppm 18

Flue T. 421

Ambient 51

Net. T. 370

Eff 80.2

Losses 19.8

X Air% 32.2

Bear with me on this as I am trying to learn here, but which test looks the best and why for the people that have taken classes and have used the digital tester for awhile.

Just a little info here, this is a Burnham V72 Boiler that I installed a Carlin EZ Gas burner on.

http://www.carlincombustion.com/products/ezgburn.htm

Jim Davis_3

Actually your first numbers were the best. The second readings left no room for changes and the last were just less efficient but not based on the calculated efficiency. The boiler obviously was getting hotter the longer you ran it so flue temperature can be misleading. But you did exactly what yu should do. Find out where the CO starts to go up above 100ppm and then back away at least .5% to 1.0% on the O2 setting.

Timco

Here's some #'s for y'all...

Teledyne/Laars Endurance (EDP-175)

Eff.....82.2%
Ex air..23.7%
Stack t.367*
pri t...64.7*
O2......4.4%
CO2.....9.3%
CO......123ppm
CO AF...156ppm
draft....05wc

No blockage of the air intake. Is there an adapter for the gas press check tube on the Fyrite? These were tiny ports, inlet & manifold.

T

Jim Davis_3

That is correct. Once we find where the burners start to produce CO that is approaching 100ppm, we either reduce the fuel or increase the air until the O2 readings rises .5% to 1%. This will reduce the CO and give us plenty of safety margin.

Chris Hodkinson

Thank You to everyone