Vapor System Main Vents

JoeV

Thanks again for making me take a closer look at what I have. Not only is it fun and very interesting, it can potentially save a ton of money in fuel savings. I am convinced that neither me nor my future contractor would have known the difference.

JoeV

Vapor system Main vents

I'm doing a little bit of a crime scene investigation trying to figure out what killed my 80 yr old vapor system's boiler so the crime doesn't recur with a new boiler-if my wife approves the expense. The system was terribly expensive to run. I have to prove that we knew why and that this won't happen again. So far, we have found several problems that can be avoided.

My question has to do with the main return vents (dry return?) I have in the joists above the boiler. When the boiler was alive, they seemed to steam (slightly) all the time. I installed tin foil to the sub floor above the vents to keep it from rotting. Was this steaming normal? The vents have a ball inside that should float and seal them, is this the best design?

It doesn't seem right that water would reach that high (about 3 feet above boiler's water line) to float the balls. It seems that the system would never maintain pressure unless the balls were floated to the top. What is this?

clammy

bad vents

Steam air vents should not hiss out steam that indicates that they are shot and in all likelyhood should be replaced if water is still blowing out of the new ones you may have other issues .Have you had any professinals come and check out your system and give you ant suggestion a great place to find one is to the left just click find a professinal and find a contractor that local to you if possible .Unless you are mechinacally incline you could go to books and more and pick up the lost art of steam at the very least you would learn alot about the proper operation of steam systems and what to do to correct them .

Long Beach Ed

Yes Joe,

Steam vents should close when steam hits them or is, by accident, they fill with water. Yours were not closing under steam.

Ed

Steamhead (in transit)

Check your radiator traps

there should be no steam at all in the dry return. If there is, steam is getting past one or more of your traps. Not only does this eventually result in leaky dry return vents, but it pressurizes the dry return so the steam doesn't distribute thru the system like it should. I bet that's one reason why it was so expensive to run.

Also make sure the steam mains are properly vented. If they vent into the dry return via standard radiator traps, make sure these traps are not leaking.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

JoeV

Thanks all. Maybe I'm confusing the terms "dry return and wet return". The radiators have their own return line but I haven't taken a close enough look to see where it goes yet. I need to crawl deeper into the crawl space to see more of the system.

The supply main makes its rounds to the radiators and drops down to the hartford loop. On top of the drop are the vents mentioned. Once, I overfilled the boiler and water poured out of them. Maybe the balls don't float anymore.

I had a pro and a friend in the HVAC business who quoted the system at a fair prices but neither: measured the radiators, realized that only one of the eight radiators had the traps installed, said a thing about all the uninsulated pipes (had the asbestos removed) and neither didn't mention these vents. In fact, neither said "you have a vapor system".

The Lost Art of Steam is what got me asking questions. It's a great book but this board helps a lot and I am enjoying this learning experience because I'm under no pressure to buy a new system.

I'm all for a new system but not for spending money only to have the same problems. I can't stand it when my wife say's "I told you so" or "that was a waste of money".

Steamhead (in transit)

OK, those are actually

the steam main vents. They need to be replaced. Measure the length and diameter of your steam mains and we can tell you what you need.

Let us know what you find on the dry (overhead) return. If it's anything other than a standard main vent, take a pic and post it here.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

JoeV

oh...

...I don't believe they were ever replaced...They have a nice coat of suface rust on them and there are three in total. What makes the ball seal the vent? water or air?

When you say measure the steam main, do you mean from the point it leaves the header to the point it returns to the boiler where the vents are?

If so, I believe it starts out at two inches and with an eccentric reducer comes down to 1-1/2 0r 1-1/4" ( I'll have to measure it tonight). It is roughly sixty feet long and I have two loops of approximate equal length.

Steamhead (in transit)

OK, I'll wait to see

what you come up with. Need to know the total amount of whatever pipe sizes are there- example 47 feet of 2-inch and 23 feet of 1-1/2-inch pipe on this main, 42 feet of 2-inch and 28 feet of 1-1/2-inch on the other main.

The ball is a vacuum check which you don't need when firing oil or gas.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

JoeV

pictures-i hope

Steamhead,
Never ceases to amaze me how I could stare at something for 15 years and not see anything! Hopefully, first photo is of main steam vents. These are the one I flooded. Second photo is from radiator return line...

On the steam main, 8 feet @ 2inches, 40feet@ 1-1/2in and 25ft@ 1-1/4inches. I believe the photos are backwards from described.

Steamhead (in transit)

The Steam Main

should have a Gorton #2. How many radiators are on that Trane Vapor system?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

JoeV

Thanks...

Eight. How does that radiator return vent work? Does it vent continuosly until water builds up and floats the ball to close it off? Inyour earlier post, you said it is not necessary when firing with gas or oil...I believe it says the same thing in "lost art". Why does fuel make a difference? Because burners cycle on/off?

JoeV

nevermind

I found the Trane artical in the library...I have a better understanding of how the vent is supposed to work. Thanks for helping me understand.

Joe

Steamhead (in transit)

> I found the Trane artical in the library...I have

> a better understanding of how the vent is

> supposed to work. Thanks for helping me

> understand.

>

> Joe





To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steamhead (in transit)

So for the dry return

a Gorton #1 should be fine.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

thfurnitureguy_4

Joe, WARNING!!!!! as you fine tune this thing and solve the heat distribution problems remember the more radiators that function the more fuel you will need to heat them up! Your wife will have you mounted on the wall if you spend all the time and money and the fuel bills don't go down. Insulate the pipes!!! If I were to do this again I would have started with insulation and messed with the vents last. Uncovered pipes are big radiators and cause a host of weard balancing problems. The guys that designed the system did so figuring covered pipes. It is much harder to get the funding if you can't show the savings. Best of luck and happy steaming.

JoeV

You must have misread...

...this tread. My boiler died in 1996 because of a half dozen problems (listed earlier) created by the previous owner and her handy man. My ignorance did nothing to improve the situation when we bought the house. We had the asbestos removed to accomodate construction. I'm just doing my homework before installing a new boiler and resurecting the steam system. So far, I believe this excercise is going to pay off handsomely. -And, the pipes will be insulated. I was just miffed that the contractors didn't mention it in their proposals.

thfurnitureguy_4

Sorry, a little toung and cheek. What is heating now? The good news is that all of the things I did ( with the help of the wall I might add) worked as to plan. It was just a set back to find out how important insulation is to fuel consumption. I to had local contractors in to advise us on the conditon and any needs prior to buying our building. they missed: Improper near boiler piping, bad and too little venting, 60 feet of sagging pipe, improper return piping, 300' of missing insulation, and the list goes on. The word im my state is, if it is there it must work and don't change it. We heat a med sized comercial building with 6 appartments and this is the first year nobody has complained about the heat! I hope to have my pipes insulated before the end of the season. I will re-post the results of the change. It sounds like your on the way and best of luck with your project. It is nice and warm when its done.

JoeV

Right now, forced air because I couldn't find anyone with residential boiler experience nor did I have money or knowledge. It's the little things that add up to give a steam system a bad rap and make it expensive to operate.

My neighbor also has a steam system that's still functional and it's costing him a fortune to run, -which he complains about to every one.

Keep in mind, the average winter temperature around here is forty degrees and it has been unusually warm. He's been in that house for over twenty years and he's never changed a steam trap, main vent or even do a blow down. It's a miracle it even works.