\"I wanted it done right\"

Mark Hunt

That is what the lady said when I asked here why she chose a contractor based 3 hours away to do her radiant system.

The home is about 5000sqft and the radiant system was/is supposed to be the heat source. We normally do all of the radiant systems for the builder, but this homeowner hired her own radiant contractor.

Just before Christmas I get a phone call from the GC asking me if there is anything I can do to help get the house warm. We were contracted originally to do only the plumbing and yet ANOTHER HVAC contractor was to do the cooling system. Well, the salesman for the HVAC company had a nervous breakdown and the managers of the HVAC company realised that they could not do the cooling system for the quoted price, easily half where it should have been, and they refused to honor the quote. We were asked to do the job, and no, not for the HVAC companies number.

Instead of just installing an air handler, we installed a gas furnace. Hehehe! So when the GC asked me if I could do anything I said "yes".

I honestly feel bad for the radiant contractor. He did a pretty good job with the piping and control strategy BUT the tubing installation is where the problem lies. He used staples for 1/2" tubing(not sure of the name, but it's a hand powered staple gun and plastic staples) and the staples do not hold the tubing tight to the sub-floor. The staple spacing was also too far apart and I can only imagine how far the tubing is hanging from the floor now that he boosted the water temps to max. I know Pex-Al-Pex doesn't react like straight Pex, but it does get soft.

So now the poor guy is travelling 3 hours one way to fix the system. The only way out I see for him is to use plates, but that will only resolve the first floor issue. The house is rocked and painted and final trim out is this week so the second floor, I am afraid, is a goner.

Anyway, she wanted it done right.

Mark H

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Darin Cook_2

Another tidbit of fact

> That is what the lady said when I asked here why

> she chose a contractor based 3 hours away to do

> her radiant system.

>

> The home is about 5000sqft

> and the radiant system was/is supposed to be the

> heat source. We normally do all of the radiant

> systems for the builder, but this homeowner hired

> her own radiant contractor.

>

> Just before

> Christmas I get a phone call from the GC asking

> me if there is anything I can do to help get the

> house warm. We were contracted originally to do

> only the plumbing and yet ANOTHER HVAC contractor

> was to do the cooling system. Well, the salesman

> for the HVAC company had a nervous breakdown and

> the managers of the HVAC company realised that

> they could not do the cooling system for the

> quoted price, easily half where it should have

> been, and they refused to honor the quote. We

> were asked to do the job, and no, not for the

> HVAC companies number.

>

> Instead of just

> installing an air handler, we installed a gas

> furnace. Hehehe! So when the GC asked me if I

> could do anything I said "yes".

>

> I honestly

> feel bad for the radiant contractor. He did a

> pretty good job with the piping and control

> strategy BUT the tubing installation is where the

> problem lies. He used staples for 1/2" tubing(not

> sure of the name, but it's a hand powered staple

> gun and plastic staples) and the staples do not

> hold the tubing tight to the sub-floor. The

> staple spacing was also too far apart and I can

> only imagine how far the tubing is hanging from

> the floor now that he boosted the water temps to

> max. I know Pex-Al-Pex doesn't react like

> straight Pex, but it does get soft.

>

> So now the

> poor guy is travelling 3 hours one way to fix the

> system. The only way out I see for him is to use

> plates, but that will only resolve the first

> floor issue. The house is rocked and painted and

> final trim out is this week so the second floor,

> I am afraid, is a goner.

>

> Anyway, she wanted it

> done right.

>

> Mark H

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Darin Cook_2

Another tidbit of fact

The heater dude did not think it worthwhile to insulate under the second floor staple-up ( I mean hung-up ). The builder knowing what goes on on our installs DID insulate it anyways. But unfortunately it will not make the floor heat properly. You can bet that if the insulation did not go up, that the first floor ceiling would have heated quite nicely. But yes the HO wanted it done right.


Darin

Christian Egli_2

Quid novi?

Non ignara mali, miseris succurrere disco.

Kevin O. Pulver

I think I'

> That is what the lady said when I asked here why

> she chose a contractor based 3 hours away to do

> her radiant system.

>

> The home is about 5000sqft

> and the radiant system was/is supposed to be the

> heat source. We normally do all of the radiant

> systems for the builder, but this homeowner hired

> her own radiant contractor.

>

> Just before

> Christmas I get a phone call from the GC asking

> me if there is anything I can do to help get the

> house warm. We were contracted originally to do

> only the plumbing and yet ANOTHER HVAC contractor

> was to do the cooling system. Well, the salesman

> for the HVAC company had a nervous breakdown and

> the managers of the HVAC company realised that

> they could not do the cooling system for the

> quoted price, easily half where it should have

> been, and they refused to honor the quote. We

> were asked to do the job, and no, not for the

> HVAC companies number.

>

> Instead of just

> installing an air handler, we installed a gas

> furnace. Hehehe! So when the GC asked me if I

> could do anything I said "yes".

>

> I honestly

> feel bad for the radiant contractor. He did a

> pretty good job with the piping and control

> strategy BUT the tubing installation is where the

> problem lies. He used staples for 1/2" tubing(not

> sure of the name, but it's a hand powered staple

> gun and plastic staples) and the staples do not

> hold the tubing tight to the sub-floor. The

> staple spacing was also too far apart and I can

> only imagine how far the tubing is hanging from

> the floor now that he boosted the water temps to

> max. I know Pex-Al-Pex doesn't react like

> straight Pex, but it does get soft.

>

> So now the

> poor guy is travelling 3 hours one way to fix the

> system. The only way out I see for him is to use

> plates, but that will only resolve the first

> floor issue. The house is rocked and painted and

> final trim out is this week so the second floor,

> I am afraid, is a goner.

>

> Anyway, she wanted it

> done right.

>

> Mark H

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Kevin O. Pulver

I think I've seen those staples

Don't they have two little brad nails with the center piece made of plastic? Sorry to hear about that, but glad it wasn't you. If you could come up with some real creative solution to this you would really look good.
Hmmm.... shoot the joist bays clear full of gyp-crete over the insulation? A bad idea, but I'm brainstorming and the forecast is dry... Kevin

Mark Hunt

Uh


illic ero haud misericordia!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Themz the ones


I am not kidding when I say that I feel bad for this guy. He really did do a nice job on the piping side. But as Darin pointed out, had the builder not been aware of how we usually do things, there would be no insulation under the tubing on the second floor.

As a business owner, I can't help but feel for what this guy HAS to be thinking right now. This job is going to cost him HUGE dollars.

I guess I posted this because I am mixed up inside over it. He is not a local competitor so he represents no threat to me, nor I to him. Do I e-mail him and offer some assistance? Would he be offended by that? Or should I let him swing and hopefully learn from the mistakes he made? He vented the boiler out the front of a $850k home and he had an entire basement to use as he pleased. The HO has already made it clear that she will be forcing him to relocate the venting and I do not blame her.

The other side of me says, "screw it". Little Miss Muffett "wanted it done right" and chose to ignore the recommendation of the builder. A builder that has trusted us with the entire mechanical systems on BOTH of the homes he has built for himself. No questions asked. She knew better.

What would you guys do? Either way this guy is gonna' swing. Would you let him hang, or shoot him before the hangman pulls the lever?

Mark H


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ALH_4

Plastic Staples?

How do they get plastic staples into plywood?

This must have been one of his first radiant systems. Imagine how upset the homeowner would be if she did not have (by your foresight) backup heat. Some people have to learn the hard way.

-Andrew

ALH_4

Ah

My question is answered above.

[Deleted User]

Magone...

Peter Mangone. Almost sounds like some dude you'd hear playing a saxaphone or something rather than an inventer of "suspended tube fastening device".

The e on the end is long.

Man go nee.

http://www.petermangone.com/

As for what to do with the neophyte, I'd suggest he purchase Siggys Hydronic Bible (Version2) and study it til he pukes. He's already committed, and there ain't no pulling him back from the edge without substantial moanetary expenses. Hopefully he will learn from his mistakes. If he continues to do business this way, it will eventually take its toll in a natural way through normal attrition.

As for her, she dug her own hole. Let her dig herself out of it without the benefit of your services. About the only thing good to come out of this scenario would be your ability to go "NAH NAH NAH NAH NAAA, I told you so:-)" and that won't really do much good other than stroking your own ego. Just tell her politely that you're currently too busy to get involved at this point of the game. Unles of course you feel obligated to bail out your GC friend, then its a whole new ball game. Your GC friend wil take care of you in the long run. THe lady is only looking for instant resolution, and it ain't gonna happen.

ME

Weezbo

no insulation me no worky.

here would be my best stab at salvaging the ...uh OhooooO's

cut out the rock .find the tubes on each zone .lash up some rather large mysons or the like,leave the rest where it is .redial the control temps, Down,

splain to GC ,'no insulation' youre Out.

"see yah. bye bye."

call the other guy .run it by him .ask him to take the work load off your hands, proffer some solutions and hang onto your hat a few days. maybe, you will get lucky and not have to go play Mr. Fixit.

Mad Dog_2

Much like me....you can come off as a barbaric neanderthal

who's real good with the wrenches, but you also have copious amounts of compassion. Forget li' miss muffet, help the guy out if you can ...if and only if - he is truly repentant and is a stand up guy. You'll know. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

in cauda venenum

They know there is no free lunch but they just hope. Mad Dog

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Tony_23

Miss Muffett

I like that.

I used to "help". It only strokes the ego. The only one I'd consider in this situation is the GC. Miss Muffett would pay handsomely. Let the other heating contractor call you, don't offer. If he doesn't call, he'll learn where the tuition is high.

Christian Egli_2

Ave Cesar

There was nothing unfortunate because you already knew how to deal with it... Mark, your foresight and intuition makes you a hero.

The home has heat thanks to you, and it has at least some floor heat and a bit of the comfort that it provides, so why not leave things as they are (at least for the upstairs).

The heating contractor could try to offer back some of the payment he received for the work, like when one would loose a performance bond, in exchange for an end of story. That wouldn't be such a bad ending?

Should you suggest anything to either the homeowner or the heating guy?

I don't know how this affects liability issues and whether you'll hang together with the guy just because you talked to him. My father got stung like that once while he was being the helpful savior in an unfortunate situation. Why it stuck to him? just because he was from outside the county... one of those counties where justice is blind-ish.

You should have less risk than my father since in your case it's the other guy who's from far away. Is the homeowner inclined to sue?

What action would give you the least remorse?

At any rate, I think everyone should be covering you with laurel.

Dave Yates (PAH)

venture carefully out onto that quicksand

First of all, you deserve to be paid for your knowledge IF you decide to "help".

Yours sounds just like one I was asked to look at for a quick fix. The lead carpenter had worked on my home and knew I was fanatical about radiant. It was a disaster of enormous purportions and a mirror image of yours where the venting issues were concerned. It too is a multi-million dollar home.

Once I'd seen the raduant abberation, I knew it wasn't going to be an easy fix. I met with the GC & gave him an hourly rate for consultation. He was under the gun with a very wealthy HO who was threatening to sue. So, I invested many hours untangling the knotted thinking that went into the botched system and re-designed as needed.

The GC, meanwhile, scheduled several meetings between the HO and me as well as other meetings where I sat in on their negotiations with the mech contractor. Everyone was mad at everyone else & I was determined I wasn't going to be drawn into any lawsuits or mouth battles. The mech contractor eventually walked and they asked us to perform all of the required alterations. 50K later, the HO finally had the system they'd wanted from the start.

That's also the only time I've witnessed hardwood flooring get ruined by a radiant system. The first time I visited, it was flat as a pancake. By the time they decided to have us perform surgery, it was like an old-time wash-board! The reason? The installers idea for managing loop temps was to retard the flow and then use the average D-T. Out at 180, back at 80 = 100 in the loop!?! Take off the letter "l" on the front and add an "s" to the end = oops. The hall loops were at the beginning of the run.

They'd be well advised to pay you for consultation before any damage occurs. Consulting work should be billed accordingly. Contact me off-Wall if you'd like more details.

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