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Missouri Law regarding the Eurocave
Mike T., Swampeast MO
Member Posts: 6,928
...MO legislators are claiming they "have no idea how" those provisions made it into the law. It passed both house and senate overwhelmingly and now many are claiming they "had no idea of this provision" or "never read".
Looked damned plain to me in the senate version of the original bill--CLEARLY stated in the very first paragraph.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law but ignorance of the contents seems to be an excuse for legislators to vote to pass a law with "unintended" provisions. ARGGGHHH!!!!
My own senator replied saying, "I do not
believe that a utility should upwardly adjust its rates because individuals
use less energy." BUT he does not say if he favors or disfavors making the change to the law! If the law is not changed, utility companies will petition again and again. Since the PSC is a party-affiliated patronage body, it's subject to the winds of political change. And it doesn't hurt that the governor's daughter? sister? is a major lobbiest for Ameren who pushed hardest for this law.
Looked damned plain to me in the senate version of the original bill--CLEARLY stated in the very first paragraph.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law but ignorance of the contents seems to be an excuse for legislators to vote to pass a law with "unintended" provisions. ARGGGHHH!!!!
My own senator replied saying, "I do not
believe that a utility should upwardly adjust its rates because individuals
use less energy." BUT he does not say if he favors or disfavors making the change to the law! If the law is not changed, utility companies will petition again and again. Since the PSC is a party-affiliated patronage body, it's subject to the winds of political change. And it doesn't hurt that the governor's daughter? sister? is a major lobbiest for Ameren who pushed hardest for this law.
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Comments
-
Recently passed Missouri law allows natural gas providers the discretion to adjust price based on reduced consumption due to warm weather or conservation. SPECIFICALLY conservation!
An attempt to strike at least this one word from the law is pending.
---------------------------------------------
FOR DECEMBER:
2003 Traditional cast iron boiler
-- 841 degree days; 330 ccf; .39 therms per dd
2004 Vitodens (same reset curve as previous)
-- 963 degree days; 238 ccf; .25 therms per dd
2005 Vitodens (reset curve reduced)
-- 939 degree days; 102 ccf; .11 therms per dd
-------------------------------------------------------
Interior conditions more similar between 2003 and 2005 (cast iron vs adjusted Vitodens) than 2004 and 2005 (Vitodens vs adjusted Vitodens).
-------------------------------------------------------
Electric resistance boost was used in both 2003 and 2005. Approximately 200 kwh for 2003 and 500 kwh for 2005.
--------------------------------------------------------
The state of Missouri is allowing a monopolistic supplier to penalize me for my conservation efforts be they decided or intended! ARGGHH!0 -
Its Coming!
energy will be billed out per unit! btu or watt or whatever, at the same price! there will be NO different "fuel" prices. Diesel, gas, Nat Gas, electric. oil. all will be "fair" traded at the same energy unit price. You can almost see and feel it coming. The nat gas price will be the first to go up. Then the rest of the "fuels" will follow suit. Hydropower will get into the act. All "fuels" will be at the same rate. We must be fair to all the big companies so the congress or the market will be "standardnized" to reflect the energy unit to be the same. Looks like the Swamp man has got into the BiG-Inning!0 -
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wood stoves and wind mills(electric), liking the idea more everyday! and don't forget solar collectors!0 -
Don't forget that our forests are not endless and that most woodburning appliances are woefully inefficient.
I'm not a "tree hugger" but even efficient wood burning on a very large scale is impractical. WAY too many other uses for wood.
Active solar still has a problem with energy consumed to produce, operate and maintain vs. energy supplied during the service life.0 -
Firewood
Just a point of comparison, Mike: An acre of hardwood forest on average will yield a cord of firewood per year by attrition without depleting the "capital".
An average house at least here in New England, will use between 9 and 12 cords a year to heat 100%, and those houses I have been in are scorching to boot! Yes, they could be more efficient. And no, not every homestead has that many acres of woodlot. But just to illustrate the extent to which it is a renewable resource.
By the way, as always I enjoy your postings and the research in the lab behind them!
Brad0 -
wholey crap! 9-12 cords
I use about 1.5 cords a year, dead wood, ready to fall!
I heat from Nov.- May solid. fires in july on occassion.
how renewable is nat gas?
I was talking about solar water heater not PV's btw.
i realize wood ain't for everyone......0 -
This is not what we were hoping for.
Mike,
That is unbelievable! After all youve done to save: youre being penalized?
Wallace Radiant Design
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Ayuh. \"Bout ten cawd a wood they-ah.
We heated a 3500 SF farm house in the 1970's in south-central NH using a Vermont Castings Defiant. We had 20 acres of woodlot and 20 of mixed field and rocks. Yup had a good crop of rocks. Ayuh.
We would cull about 15 cords no problem, no depletion. Burn what we needed. Neighbors would pool the surplus cords and stack them (in the middle of the night to preserve dignity) in the sheds of elderly neighbors. Ah, time was...
Of course the house was 200+ years old, no insulation, wattle and daub walls and horse hair plaster between us and Canada.
Modern or at least efficient houses I could see using a tad less wood.0 -
I guess
there is no energy crisis in MO, so they can penalize the people who are doing something good. Certainly not that way in CA.
jerry
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I'd already written congressmen regarding passage of the bill to begin with.
Chief sponsor says the "conservation" clause has become too "political". Writing again to urge repeal of as much of that law as possible.
Our state legislature is more interested in passing laws to allow pharmacists to refuse to sell "morning after" pills on religious grounds than protecting consumers from monopolistic exploitation.
MO governor is the son of Rep. Blunt who is trying to become the new house majority leader. MO newspapers (at least in the larger cities) generally say he has just as much problem with shady lobbying deals as DeLay. Of course my local paper is silent.0 -
VERY difficult to estimate, but 10% - 25% of the 2003 vs. 2005 reduction [seems] directly related to lowering the heat curve to the barely adequate level.0 -
Any more info on that bill, Mike?
a number or author?
hot rod
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unbelievable!
This is exactly why I am ripping out my gas system and changing to oil, even though oil is more per BTU in my area. I don't like the idea that the gas monopoly can screw me like they are trying to do to you. I am in the midwest, and my energy supplier is posting record profits, yet still wants more rate increases.0 -
Will try to find and will report.
Know it took me quite a while to find the original bill number at the Missouri website.
Funny thing is that I read a little item in the local news regarding the effects of that bill. "Warm weather" was mentioned as a consideration.
I called the Missouri Public Service Commission and registered a complaint saying that could easily affect conservation as well.
Next day I bought a St. Louis paper for a rare sit-down lunch. Found that "conservation" was SPECIFICALLY mentioned. Wanted to vomit!
If you think that "adjustments" for high use due to unusually cold weather will be ANYTHING but upwards due to "increased demand" I want to sell you a "maintenance free" home...0 -
Hmmmm....
I guess the CEO's chair needed to be re-stuffed and they're noticing that consumers have reduced their energy spending? :-P
But seriously, consumers will always be at the mercy of regulators and legislators. Unless we hold the latter two's feet to the fire, we can expect the monopolies to continue to try and exploit its users in new and exciting ways.
I also expect attempts in the near future to start pricing natural gas on time-of-day and peak demand basis. Electronic meters make it possible, and the dilapidated infrastructure in our area will give the monopolies the excuse to do so.
Peak-demand metering is also a likely savior for regular gas water heater manufacturers who may be starting to feel the sting from tankless units in particular. Peak demand metering could remove the monetary incentive for people to make the switch.0 -
SB 179
Here's the link
and the preamble...
SB 179 - This act pertains to cost recovery for utility companies.
The act provides the opportunity for any electrical corporation to make application to the public service commission in order to utilize interim energy charges or periodic rate adjustments to recover costs of fuel and purchased power. The act allows the commission to include in such rate schedules features intended to provide incentives to improve efficiency and cost-effectiveness for the utility's fuel and purchased power procurement.
The act provides the opportunity for any electrical, gas or water corporation to make application to the public service commission in order to utilize periodic rate adjustments to recover costs related to environmental compliance. The costs here can be capital or expense. The act stipulates a cap on this rate adjustment, any such adjustment shall not exceed two and one-half percent per year. There is a carry over provision in the language, however any such carry over shall respect and stay within the limit set for the annual cap.
The act allows for limited adjustments for changes in customer usage for variations in weather and/or conservation.
---------------------------------------------------
Signed into law on July 14, 2005 and effective this January 1.
-----------------
Still looking for the bill number of the attempt to change.
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SB829
Is the attempt to change
The following paragraph is to be removed:
"3. Subject to the requirements of this section, any gas corporation may make an application to the commission to approve rate schedules authorizing periodic rate adjustments outside of general rate proceedings to reflect the nongas revenue effects of increases or decreases in residential and commercial customer usage due to variations in either weather, conservation, or both."
The current debate in the senate seems to hinge on whether the entire paragraph should be deleted or ending changed to something like:
...due to variations in weather."
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So strange...
...free market regulation of natural monopolies seems more onerous than inefficient bureaucratic control.
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bogus numbers on wood heating
I don't know what century you guys are getting your info. from on wood heating. A modern EPA Phase II woodstoves is very efficient. However, they are space heaters desgigned to supplement the main heat. Some floor plans are open enough to allow a centrally located woodstove to provide all the heating needs but most cannot due to the way we compartmentalize our homes.
You guys paint a picture of the woodburning community as clear cutting our forests. Actually, we salvage the dead trees, which are a renewable fuel. We now have mills taking the trash from lumbering and construction turning it into pellets, which are a terrific way to heat. Again, a very green way of heating.
Most people who operate a modern woodstove go through 1-3 cords per yr. Its those cheap Charlies who insist on burning old polluting clunkers that run through wood piles because those stoves are so inefficient. The Hearth, Patio, and BBQ Assn has been very active working with the EPA to host Great Stove Changeouts in EPA pm 2.5 non-attainment zones. There are changeouts currently going in Libby, Montanna and Pittsburgh, Pa. Go to www.hpba.org to learn more. If you want to learn more about heating with wood or biomass fuels, go to John Gulland's www.woodheating.org
Making such uneducated generalizations about an entire industry is foolish and unfair. I can't stand it when I see houses with new monster boilers sized the same as the coal burning monster they replaced. However, I do laud companies who do their homework by actually doing the calculations and sizing the heating plant based upon current conditions and knowledge and not the sins of the past or the original construction before weatherization efforts.
If you want to learn more about the hearth industry and what's available, why not come to Salt Lake City in March? We've got everything from hearth products to the latest BBQ grilles (they cook free food daily) to a fireplace that burns water!
I'm still trying to figure out how you made the jump from this goofy law in Mo. to bashing wood heating...0 -
I think Mike refers to outdoor wood furnaces
which are prevelent here in Missouri. These "barrels with a campfire underneath" run around 40% efficient, from what I have been told from various manufactures and testing agencies.
Neighbors in my area consume 6- 8 cords to heat 2500 - 3000 square foot homes with these.
A much different animal that a typical indoor woodstove, I imagine.
Although I would be interested in seeing indepentant lab test results on the indoor wood stoves also, not manufactures claims!
Seems to me gasification or catalytic technology is about the only way to get wood burners burning clean?
Correct me, and show me Warnock Hersey, TUV or equilevent lab testing to concur emission and efficiency standards on wood burners
It's very easy to make claims, back them up.
Tell nme more about the SLC event?
Signed a woodburner, and a downwinder:)
hot rod
hot rodor
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Wasn't meaning to bash wood heating. It's VERY common in my neck of the woods by the way, but with the lumber mills, chip mills, pulp mills, charcoal plants and pallet makers there's already LOTS of demand for wood. There is some genuine tree farming and selective cutting, but mostly still conventional harvesting and "natural" replanting.0 -
HR, try the
Greenwood site. www.greenwoodtechnologies.com
Had a meeting with the new owners last December. they have taken a decent technology, and in my opinion, made it very effecient. Anew production facility in Seattle. They have had third party testing.
We have been offered a dealership for Vancouver Island and the Gulf Islands. Still mulling it over, but with starting up the new business, I don't think that we can take this on right now.
Leo G
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wood furnaces
are notoriously inefficient and pollute badly. They are exempt from EPA stds right now simply because they are few in number compared to the other problems in the world. We discussed them last yr. at the HPBA EXPO on Sat. with the Tech Cmte meeting.
Hotrod, just click on the EXPO tab at the HPBA site to get all you need about registration, exhibits, education and business building tracks, etc. All the testing labs as well as UL, CSA, ANSI, Propane Assn., etc. there. You can ask OMNI Test labs about the emmissions and efficiency of the Quadrafire stoves, which have lead the industry for the last 15 yrs in a row. www.fireplaces.com
I'll be teaching an NFI Gas Certification course on Thurs. Stop by and say hello! Don't forget to head out to the outdoor live burn booths around lunch time for free food. They cook everything edible you can imagine. Remember, this show included the BBQ industry. You can see all sorts of cool demos such as Schott Glass's exhibit where you hold tempered and ceramic glass under a special viewer and see the actual stress lines.
No hard feelings guys. Just want us all to better appreciate each other so we can learn. I hang out with HVAC, Home Inspectors, Fire Investigators, and hearth mfrs. as much as I can. Of course, I work for a mfr. as well.
Have a good one!0 -
Hi Leo
I called and talked to those folks. Twice in fact. They had a hard time answering many of my questions and promised to get back to me. One of the new guys, I believe.
In all fairness they did call back and leave messages but I have not reconnected to get their speil.
It looks a bit different from the typical wood burners.
You go first and let me know how they work out, and the factory support, etc
hot rod
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Howdy Bob...
Got any pointers for a person looking for a good high efficiency hydronic wood boiler?
Prefer one to be used inside. Am not really worried about the aesthetics of watching the wood burn as much as I'm interested in efficiently converting it into hot water for use in other systems.
Could use a pellet feeder if necessary.
Thanks for participating.
ME0 -
My wood heating numbers
were based on experience from the 1970's when it was the only heat available in a 1750's vintage farmhouse in south-central NH. It was a Vermont Castings Defiant of that era, fairly airtight while the house was certainly not. I should have said older houses not average houses using ten or so cords of wood, but that was my experience.
Naturally with modern construction the usage would be way down.0 -
The local news stations
have all been doing energy saving tip segments, lately. I'm going to e mail them this bill for an opinion
hot rod
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Seems to be a fairly hot topic--at least in the city newspapers.0 -
Hey Hot Rod
Draw their attention to the "Full Bill Text" link on the SB179 link.
Why do I suspect this is what happens when LOBBYISTS WRITE LAWS???0 -
\"Demand Destruction\"
Is the term currently being "floated" amongst energy
traders. ( another source of powerful lobbying )
Isn't it grand, first we have regulated monolpolies, then
we quasi-regulate or do a bad job of deregulation.
( intentionally )
Next all the old utilities can't compete their stocks
tank and are sold off to their own IPP ( ILLEGAL! ) at
discount rates.
The IPP's are bought up and reform as a new unregulated
monopoly, full circle, electric, gas and communication
providers have all done this, by design.
With, I might add the full knowledge of legislators country
wide, don't think so, think again.
The market depends on "greed and fear" politicians depend
on lobbyists, not a big stretch, cha-ching!
I'ts going to get ugly... God help us all.0 -
Update
The bill is still pending.
Meanwhile...
this
My teachers taught me that introducing such as bill to the assembly invited a charge of treason against the bill of rights and all citizens. I guess they did a bad job.0 -
Update
The bill is still pending.
Meanwhile...
this
same text, different comment from a conventional source here if you supply info and log in.
My teachers taught me that introducing such as bill to the assembly invited a charge of treason against the bill of rights and all citizens. I guess they did a bad job.
Nothing unusual I guess.
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Mark
I just spoke with MArtin Lunde from Dectra Industries last week about testing currently underway in Wisconsin. His outdoor/indoor unit was tested along with a bunch of others in the outdoor "boiler" industry. The final results are supposed to be released mid April. Around the 10th-12th IIRC. I'll be getting a copy and I'll forward one to you if you'd like.
Martin said his unit tested "very favorably", sounds like engineer speak for dang good! It will most likely hit the efficiency threshold for the $3,000 energy tax credit. He also mentioned a lot of the current models of outdoor equipment are returning some very poor results not only in efficiency but also pollution and particulate discharge. There's not a snowballs chance in you know where that the majority of the other ODWB's will even be close to the mark from what he saw at the testing lab.0 -
UPDATE! UPDATE!
> Recently passed Missouri law allows natural gas
> providers the discretion to adjust price based on
> reduced consumption due to warm weather or
> conservation. _B_SPECIFICALLY_/B_
> conservation!
>
> An attempt to strike at least
> this one word from the law is
> pending.
>
> --------------------------------------
> ------- FOR DECEMBER:
>
> 2003 Traditional cast
> iron boiler
>
> -- 841 degree days; 330 ccf;
> .39 therms per dd
>
> 2004 Vitodens (same reset
> curve as previous)
>
> -- 963 degree days; 238
> ccf; .25 therms per dd
>
> 2005 Vitodens (reset
> curve reduced)
>
> -- 939 degree days; 102 ccf;
> .11 therms per
> dd
>
> --------------------------------------------
> -----------
>
> Interior conditions more similar
> between 2003 and 2005 (cast iron vs adjusted
> Vitodens) than 2004 and 2005 (Vitodens vs
> adjusted
> Vitodens).
>
> ------------------------------------
> -------------------
>
> Electric resistance boost
> was used in both 2003 and 2005. Approximately
> 200 kwh for 2003 and 500 kwh for
> 2005.
>
> -----------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
> The state of Missouri is
> allowing a monopolistic supplier to penalize me
> for my conservation efforts be they decided or
> intended! ARGGHH!
0 -
UPDATE! UPDATE!
> Recently passed Missouri law allows natural gas
> providers the discretion to adjust price based on
> reduced consumption due to warm weather or
> conservation. _B_SPECIFICALLY_/B_
> conservation!
>
> An attempt to strike at least
> this one word from the law is
> pending.
>
> --------------------------------------
> ------- FOR DECEMBER:
>
> 2003 Traditional cast
> iron boiler
>
> -- 841 degree days; 330 ccf;
> .39 therms per dd
>
> 2004 Vitodens (same reset
> curve as previous)
>
> -- 963 degree days; 238
> ccf; .25 therms per dd
>
> 2005 Vitodens (reset
> curve reduced)
>
> -- 939 degree days; 102 ccf;
> .11 therms per
> dd
>
> --------------------------------------------
> -----------
>
> Interior conditions more similar
> between 2003 and 2005 (cast iron vs adjusted
> Vitodens) than 2004 and 2005 (Vitodens vs
> adjusted
> Vitodens).
>
> ------------------------------------
> -------------------
>
> Electric resistance boost
> was used in both 2003 and 2005. Approximately
> 200 kwh for 2003 and 500 kwh for
> 2005.
>
> -----------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
> The state of Missouri is
> allowing a monopolistic supplier to penalize me
> for my conservation efforts be they decided or
> intended! ARGGHH!
0 -
UPDATE! UPDATE!
Coming soon to a state near you?
The term for this is "decoupling".
Curiously this is being "sold" to Public Service Commissions (or whatever they call them in your state) on the grounds of conservation! The theory is that by guaranteeing "reasonable" profits to utility providers regardless of weather AND conservation efforts by their customers, that the providers loose the incentive to keep profit up by keeping consumption up.... In other words, it's supposed to remove a disincentive to conservation.
And here I thought that "guaranteed" profits were a disincentive to efficiently supplying a good or service and a near guarantee of waste and corruption with the true do-nothings scrambling to wrangle an ever-increasing share of the profits from the workers who are actively involved in genuine labor...
I offer this proposed document for your perusal:
Weather Variation Proposal
Note how "conservation measures by consumers" are supposed to removed from consideration in the calculations of a measure that is ALL ABOUT CONSERVATION!!!!
My conservations measures have been VERY EXPENSIVE, DISRUPTIVE and sometimes UNCOMFORTABLE! While "payback" may not be the major reason I have taken these measures, it does play a significant part. Isn't that the American way? Work hard, do your part to help others and then achieve reasonable profits for your own ingenuity and labor?
Decoupling? That's a good name. THIS DECOUPLES ME FROM THE CREAM OF MY PERSONAL CONSERVATION MEASURES!!! The PROVIDER skims the cream without IN ANY WAY sharing the burden that I have assumed!!! ARGGHH!!!!!
I'm not even going to mention how these same providers often engage in speculation via the active storage and trading of natural gas. This even though they are prohibited from "profiting" by the sale of gas to consumers. HMMM...
p.s. I actually seem to be getting somewhere in this regard with both the legislature and public service commission. I've received numerous, highly considered replies to my concerns with communications forwarded to the "head cheese" via the chain of command that [seems] to understand the validity of my concerns.
0 -
How can it be possible to "statistically remove" conservation measures from a scheme being LOBBIED as an attempt to encourage conservation???
0 -
Read
George Orwell's "1984" again. "Newspeak" and "doublethink".
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Once would be my first reading.
0
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