Boiler Antifreeze

Ragu

I've had a few green dribbling leaks with glycol mostly around valve packings. Any valves out there that are impervious to glycol? Also, how do you guys deal with your boiler feed?

Ragu

Perennial Question

The Frozen Wirsbo post brought this one up. What approach do you take when determining whether or not a system gets glycol? Thanks.

Tundra

I always glycol my customers boilers. A number if my customers have heat traces on their sewer lines, so the first thing I do is determine if this structure has outside glycol lines. I expect to see -40*F most years so I freeze protect those homes to -40. The least I do is to burst protect to that temperature. I have had calls where the boiler has gone off while the owner was out of town, the heating system turned into a huge slushie. Now, we had to bring space heaters in to get circulation going but once the baseboard warmed up a bit they could replace the domestic systemm in a warm house.

Geo_5

glycol

I don't think it sould be a last minute thing, theres proper circulator sizing to take into account,-40 my god...I just finished 4 trinity 150's and the only reason I injected enough glycol to -5 was the condo owners did not want to insulate an exposed brick wall inwitch all the returns had to run thru.A little over kill yes but I like to sleep at night.

John MacGregor_2

Ragu,
We at least offer antifreeze on all hydronic jobs. This became an imperative back in the 70's when we had a 42 hour power failure and replaced a bunch of radiation in concrete floors with wall-to-wall baseboard.
We still have the occasional problem when people leave town for periods of time without taking proper precautions and come home to an ice cube, or worse yet, a swimming pool.
We never connect to the water supply, but isolate the system, oversize the expansion tank and size the circulaters accordingly.
We used Wolverine Brass valves almost exclusively for 40 years until they switched the pipe dope on their ball valves and they all leaked anti-freeze. It cost us over $6000 to replace them. We are going to see Mr Wolverine in court sometime this year. We have been using Nibco valves since then with no problems.
The other thing to be careful of is that you use the proper anti-freeze in the new aluminum boilers. Standard propylene glycol will eat out those boilers. Make sure you use the approved fluids, such as No-Burst AL. We have already replaced one of our competitor's boilers that had only been in for a year or two due to the improper fluid. Another contractor downstate had to replace an entire in-floor system that plugged up with goo. I don't have first hand knowledge of that one, but it came from a good source.
Good luck,enjoy your spaghetti,
John

Drew_2

Thank You

John

Thank you for the recommendation and your reasoning for using antifreeze.

Drew
Noble Company
The Home of Noburst

George_10

Rhomar Water along with The Noble Company

have been warning that these new aluminum boilers need specific TLC. Aluminum rated glycol is one of the first areas of concern if glycol is needed in the system for freeze protection. Another area of concern, is the pH of the water in the system. Aluminum is a very different metal as far as its tolerance of pH below 7.5 and above 9 on a pH scale. It can not be treated like cast iron.

Our treatment product Pro-Tek 922 contains a buffer in it which maintains this sweet area of around 8 on the pH scale.

It also has many other benefits which are outlined on our web site www.rhomarwater.com.

Any questions please give me a call at 800-543-5975

hr

Glycol leaks!

from places water doesn't Trust me, I've seen this over and over. Make sure all your threaded connections are teflon taped and plan on nuicence (sp) leaks at spots like this.

It just goes with the glycol territory.

hot rod

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Ragu

Antifreeze Dilution

By far the biggest problem with glycol around here (in Maine) has been that most of the guys do it as a one shot deal and not an ongoing program. Almost all leave the feed hooked up and the system gets diluted over time as entrained air gets eliminated and make up water is admitted. I've been taking the handles off of the isolation valves ahead of and behind the feed, blatantly tagging the system and telling the customers that antifreeze requires periodic maintenance. In the first place the stuff costs a lot and secondly people put a lot of faith in the "fact" that there is glycol in their system.

hr

A glycol fill system

is almost a must on large systems. Small bubbles of air can purge for days, or weeks even. Especially with PS and VS injection systems.

As you know most all the new Mo-co boilers have pressure switches built in. Doesn't take much below 10 psi and some will lock out. That's a tight number to work around with a typical 12 psi fill.

Personally I feel a glycol fill system is a must, anymore.

Or plan on a bunch of costly call backs to bump up the pressure.

Fill valves should not even be in the picture with systems that will be glycolled. At least in my opinion and experience.

A LWC would also be a must, and some fill systems have alarm contacts in the event of a leak and pressure loss.

Also many of the Mo-co boilers have LWC and flow switches built in for protection.

hot rod

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Chuck_24

what kind of specific maintenance does an antifreeze charged system require?

Thanks,

Chuck

hr

Check

the Ph yearly. This is the first indicator that the inhibitor package has been depleted. If you catch it soon enough it can be boosted. Some manufactures recommend replacing the fluid if the ph drops below 7.

As Ph drops the fluid turns to glycolic acid and will start atacking the weakest metals in the system. Expansion tanks, threaded nipples, and pump volutes are usually where the problems show up.

Of course you want to check the freeze protection level also. This doesn't change much if no fresh water has been added. BUT you need to know the protection level or the fluid is useless for it's intended purpose.

I use a small Hach electronic stick Ph meter, about 80 bucks.

And a Misco refractometer to check protection levels.

You can also send a sample to the manufacture for a much deeper analysis, if you suspect a problem or have a large commercial system that should never be at risk.

I have stickers I put on glycolled equipment that tells the type of fluid, PG or EG, % of mix, and the test result, yearly. It lets any other mechanic know what is in the system and why

hot rod

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Xc8p2dC_2

going out on a wing here

> the Ph yearly. This is the first indicator that

> the inhibitor package has been depleted. If you

> catch it soon enough it can be boosted. Some

> manufactures recommend replacing the fluid if the

> ph drops below 7.

>

> As Ph drops the fluid turns

> to glycolic acid and will start atacking the

> weakest metals in the system. Expansion tanks,

> threaded nipples, and pump volutes are usually

> where the problems show up.

>

> Of course you want

> to check the freeze protection level also. This

> doesn't change much if no fresh water has been

> added. BUT you need to know the protection level

> or the fluid is useless for it's intended

> purpose.

>

> I use a small Hach electronic stick

> Ph meter, about 80 bucks.

>

> And a Misco

> refractometer to check protection levels.

>

> You

> can also send a sample to the manufacture for a

> much deeper analysis, if you suspect a problem or

> have a large commercial system that should never

> be at risk.

>

> I have stickers I put on glycolled

> equipment that tells the type of fluid, PG or EG,

> % of mix, and the test result, yearly. It lets

> any other mechanic know what is in the system and

> why

>

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_



In a closed loop, non steam or DHW system, utilizing a M0-Co with aluminum or stainless exchanger

Does water hardness play a factor and/or is there any benifit upon initial fill up, to use filtered or softend water?

Xc8p2dC_2

going out on a wing here

In a closed loop, non steam or DHW system, utilizing a M0-Co with aluminum or stainless exchanger

Does water hardness play a factor and/or is there any benifit upon initial fill up, to use filtered or softend water?

hr

It will depend on

how hard the fill water is. Ideally the glycol folks would like to see you use DI or DM (de-ionized or de-mineralized) water. Not quite the same as softened water, or RO water by the way.

One of the components in the glycol inhibitor is to lock up hardness. If the fill water you use is over the hardness the manufacture shows in their guides, you will compromise the glycol.

It's cheap and easy to haul a 55 gallon barrel of filtered water if the jobsite water is questionable.

Also most manufactures will ship pre diluted glycol to your spec. Generally in 55 gallon barrel sizes only. Although 55 gallons of diluted glycol doesn't go very far in a medium to large radiant job. Snowmelt especially.

Contact Dow for a free copy of their engineering manuals. A lot of good info on glycol installation and care.

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Ragu

Hot Rod

I think that you are absolutely right about eliminating the fresh water connection on a glycol system and installing a pressurized glycol fill. Good tagging procedures and documented glycol test results also should be mandatory. Thanks.

Dr Pepper

Glycol fill systems...

are OK but should be installed with no fresh water feed. I quit using them a while ago (when the design allows) and use an oversized (next size if it's close) bladder expansion tank and a pressure switch to shut down the system and/or alarm if it looses pressure. Better to let it sit than have a bunch of broken pipe. If the customer wants or needs a glycol system they should know it is NOT maintenance free and what maintenance to expect.

Silver

should I use gylcol antifreeze

I recently bought a house in Massachusetts. The garage is under the house. The living room is over the garage and has three heating units. The heat is forced hot water with a Burnham furnace. The pipes for the three heating units run through the walls of the garage. The homeowners did not disclose if they had any freezing issues in the pipes - hopefully, they did not. They have also not told me how well insulated the pipes are. My concern is if I loose electricity even for more than a few hours. Should I have propylene glycol added to the heating system. The brand recommended by my oil company is TFI Everhot, a company in Massachusetts. Do people have experience with this company. What are the cons and how serious are they? I also have a toilet over the garage. Am I better off with a generator? Any help would be appreciated. Is there a place on this site where all the pros and cons of adding glycol are documented? Thank you!!

Ragu

Silver

As far as I have been able to fathom, most glycol is made by Dow, DuPont or Hercules and then private labelled. The biggest differnces that I can see between one brand and another is that some brands are virgin and some are recycled. Maybe Drew from Noble or George from Rhomar could add to this.

As far as "to glycol" or "not to glycol": about 6 years ago we had an ice storm in Maine that knocked out power for weeks. After about a week there were no more generators to be bought; they were all sold out. There was only one gas station that ran off a generator and the only gas they had available was high test. Ha, ha!

Some of the houses that had been glycolled didn't make it because the systems had gotten diluted over time. The ones that were maintained made it. When the power did come on, boiler controls were getting fried left and right due to low voltages upon startup.

What I learned was: pipe your plumbing and heating pipes so they can be drained, use glycol and consider a generator.

Jerry Boulanger_2

There's a good general source

of information at http://www.raypak.com/afreeze.htm.

Tundra

Almost everyone here uses glycol. I do not add the domestic water to the boilers as it has chlorine and other impurities that are not helpful. I have a still, only for water (unfortunately). I also will use rain water or in a pinch RO filtered water. I disconnect the automatic fill on the rare system that I find it on. One of my commercial accounts has a fifteen gallon reserve tank. Above it is mounted a jet pump with a switch that turns the pump off if it runs dry. This is then run through an automatic fill valve to the boiler. If you require an automatic fill this is a great way to go. It takes a little to set it up but you don't have to worry about dilution.