Steam system - two radiators no heat. Argh

Steamhead (in transit)

That tapping is used if the boiler is installed on a hot-water system.

Check the rest of your system to see if you haven't sprung a steam leak somewhere. That could cause your problem. Also vent that main as described elsewhere in this thread, and vent any other mains too.

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Michael J

Steam system - two radiators no heat. Argh

I had great heat until the super-cold weather. Then, two of the radiators stopped heating. A third one sometimes heats partially. All of these radiators are in the coldest parts of the house.
Any help on how to get steam to them again?
The pipes in the basement are hot directly under the radiators. So steam is getting over to them, but not IN them.
I don't know if I have one-pipe or two-pipe steam system.
I have air valves (I replaced one) on the end of all the radiators that whistle some when heating.
I read this from the website but don't know what it means: "If a thermostatic radiator trap fails in the closed position, no air will pass through it, so little or no steam will arrive at the radiator." And also: "Raise the return line to eliminate the water seal, or install main vents at the outlet side of the end-of-main F&T traps." All on the page....noheatinthesystem.....
Thanks for some help.
Mike

Ryan_10

Sounds like..

you have one pipe steam. Single pipe you have one pipe coming out of the floor. Two pipe you have two. Simple enough. Vents are usually a sign of single pipe.

You may just have some valves that are bad. Try pulling the valve off and firing the boiler and seeing if air/steam comes out of the hole in the radiator. If it does, you've got a bad vent. Blowing into the valve can work too to check, but its sort of disgusting.

Don't burn yourself when doing this. That steam is HOT and if you see steam coming out of the hole before you get the vent back on, wear gloves to do it or shut the system down.

Bob W._3

Michael, first thing, how many pipes are connected to each radiator? Sounds like you have vents and not traps. A picture of a radiator and a picture of the problem main would help.

Michael J

Bob,
I have one pipe to each radiator.
Sorry I cannot get a digital picture to you.

Michael J

Ryan,
I took the vent/valve off one of the radiators. It made no difference - no steam, no heat.
The other partially working radiator, I replaced the valve (vent? same thing?) and the radiator works partially some of the time.
Thanks for your help.

Bob W._3

I think the thing to do would be to increase the venting rate on that main feeding the cold rads, and maybe increase the venting rate of the rads themselves. Like Ryan suggested, take off a vent and see if it heats up. Also, post the length and diameter of the main feeding those radiators, the type and number of main vents on that main, and the type and model number of the vents on the rads. No need for pictures:)

Jim Franklin_2

vent vs valve

The vent lets the air out and is about 2/3 the way up. The valve lets the steam in and water out and is on the floor between the pipe and the radiator. Make sure this is still open :-)

Is the thermostat getting satisfied before the radiators have a chance to heat? If you have uninsulated pipes, it could take a while for them to get hot.

jim

Michael J

Jim,
Thanks for the clarification on vent and valve.
Yes, valves are open.
Yes, the radiators had been working very quickly before the thermostat hit the temperature. They just stopped about 3 weeks ago.
The heat gets in the pipes all the way till underneath the floorboards in the basement.
Thanks again for helping.

Mark Hunt

Could be


the rads are not pitched correctly and you now have condensate blocking the inlet.

The rads should pitch toward the incoming pipe.

Any remodeling done in these rooms recently? New floors?

Check the pitch.

Mark H

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Michael J

Bob,
Okay, this is what I got:
mains - 2 1/4 inch for 22 ft. then breaks to 3 feeds to 3 radiators. These feeds are 1 3/4 inch for:
3 ft. to back porch
15 ft. to kitchen
30 ft. to back bedroom.
The vents on the rads are "No.10 Ventor Hoffman Specialty Co."
I did not see any vents on the mains. But on the heater there is a new Honeywell thingy with a pigtail pipe that a guy installed last year.
Hope this helps. Thanks again.

Michael J

Mark,
Thanks. I keep tilting the smaller rad that partially works. It helps a bit.
But I can't believe it would be the pitch because they all worked fine for weeks. And worked last year also.
No remodeling.
Thanks for helping.

Bob W._3

Pretty old vents on the rads? Appears so. Your main should have at least one Gorton No. 1 or Hoffman No. 75 main vent on it, to get the steam to the end of the main fast. Does your main go around in a loop with the take-offs coming off it to each riser? The vents should be after the last riser or at the end of the dry return. If there are no vents, consider adding them to each main. For immediate relief, however, get some Gorton C or D radiator vents and put one on each hard to heat radiator. Bet it will help. You can get them here:

http://www.pexsupply.com/index.cfm/action/catalog.browse/category_header/1/id_category/9ad86cb1-ac62-4f4d-a73b-594633b64ccc

Michael J

Bob,
No vents on either main. In fact, there is a little tap coming out of the heating unit that says, "This tap provided for air elimination - apply venting means."
So...I guess that's where I can put the vent.
But I still don't think venting is the problem.
Why?
I practically took the vent off two of these rads and they still don't do anything.
Thanks again for your help.
I need to tackle this tomorrow.

Michael J

> you have one pipe steam. Single pipe you have

> one pipe coming out of the floor. Two pipe you

> have two. Simple enough. Vents are usually a

> sign of single pipe.

>

> You may just have some

> valves that are bad. Try pulling the valve off

> and firing the boiler and seeing if air/steam

> comes out of the hole in the radiator. If it

> does, you've got a bad vent. Blowing into the

> valve can work too to check, but its sort of

> disgusting.

>

> Don't burn yourself when doing

> this. That steam is HOT and if you see steam

> coming out of the hole before you get the vent

> back on, wear gloves to do it or shut the system

> down.

Ryan_10

If steam is getting...

all the way over to the radiators but not getting INTO the radiators even with the vents off, and you've got cold(er) weather and are running long boiler cycles, it sounds to me like you might have to get a bit more aggressive in diagnosing this, i.e. pull out the pipe wrenches. There may be an obstruction in the piping or radiator itself?

Ryan_10

That 30 foot run..

is that one of the cold ones? That's a pretty long run, particularly if it isn't insulated. And since you've got steam and condensate running through the same 1-1/4" pipe (probably.. you measured outside diameter?), lots of room for it to get crud filled.

It's also a prime candidate to whip out a drill and an NPT 1/8" tap to tap a vent directly into the pipe somewhere near the end (up on a nipple, of course).

clammy

steam promblems

Have you closed some of your raditor supply valves to some of the rads that are working to see if your cold rads get warm ? Has your boiler been recently replaced with a smaller boiler incapable of suppling you with enough btu's .Just asking ?And when was the last time some one has cleaned the water side of your boiler? iI have personally cleaned boilers and seen there cycle times get cut dowm and the boiler abality to produce steam improve if the bottom of your boiler is filled with mud it could very well effect your boiler abaility to produce it rated output ?Are your steam mains insulated and properly pitched .These are all small things that once compounded can effect your system if you still can't get it right try the find a pro listing on this site they are the beat peace clammy happy holidays to all

Dave_23

I had similar problem

I had a similar problem. One of my rads would heat fine for a few weeks after the start of the heating season, then unexpectedly, it would stop. Simply pitching the rad didn't solve the problem. It turned out that the riser to the rad had a short horizontal section located between the floor and the ceiling below which was little by little filling up with condensate (water). I had to hike up the entire rad in order to restore the proper pitch to the horizontal section mentioned above, thus allowing it to drain. It's worked fine ever since. BTW, if you attemp lifting the rad, be careful not to put too much strain on the existing piping.

Steam Bunny

David might be right on!

>I keep tilting the smaller rad

> that partially works. It helps a bit. But I

> can't believe it would be the pitch because they

> all worked fine for weeks. And worked last year

> also. No remodeling. Thanks for helping.




If, like us, you've accumulated tons of snow on your roof recently- could a portion of the house settled just enough to change pipe pitch? If so, water could be accumulating, choking off the steam to the radiators.

You might check by placing a level on the floor at each of the cold radiators. Attempt to overlay the direction of its supply pipe. If floor tilts towards radiator, attempt to lift radiator onto something like fender washers, but this won't work too well if supply is held firm by a sagging joist or is already up against the subfloor.

Another diagnostic is to remove radiator valve & open supply pipe- then blow into it. If there's sitting water, with a good puff you might be surprised to hear a 'flush' sound as water's rerouted back to the basement.

If you can't get your mouth around pipe- you can stick a chopstick or long wooden match into it to see if water wets the tip.

Steam Bunny

Forgot to mention- above would hold true only if there's a horizontal run from riser to radiator.

Michael J

Steam heat - Argh continued

Okay.
Thank you men for all your excellent responses.
I've tried a number of things.
Here's where I'm at:
I took 2 rads off. Took the 2 valves off and started the system.
The first floor feed pipe started to whisp steam (good start) but then it gurgled and started to fill up with steamy water.
So, I could see why I was not getting any steam heat in the rad.
I'm thinking of getting those cans of compressed air to clean clogged drains and blow it down these feeder pipes.
What do you guys think I should do?
Also, I was thinking of draining the water in the system (after it cools down a bit - it's warmer outside lately) then refilling with new water. Is that going to do any good?
Thanks so much for your help. Michael J.

The Wire Nut

> I had a similar problem. One of my rads would

> heat fine for a few weeks after the start of the

> heating season, then unexpectedly, it would stop.

> Simply pitching the rad didn't solve the problem.

> It turned out that the riser to the rad had a

> short horizontal section located between the

> floor and the ceiling below which was little by

> little filling up with condensate (water). I had

> to hike up the entire rad in order to restore the

> proper pitch to the horizontal section mentioned

> above, thus allowing it to drain. It's worked

> fine ever since. BTW, if you attemp lifting the

> rad, be careful not to put too much strain on the

> existing piping.

The Wire Nut

> I had a similar problem. One of my rads would

> heat fine for a few weeks after the start of the

> heating season, then unexpectedly, it would stop.

> Simply pitching the rad didn't solve the problem.

> It turned out that the riser to the rad had a

> short horizontal section located between the

> floor and the ceiling below which was little by

> little filling up with condensate (water). I had

> to hike up the entire rad in order to restore the

> proper pitch to the horizontal section mentioned

> above, thus allowing it to drain. It's worked

> fine ever since. BTW, if you attemp lifting the

> rad, be careful not to put too much strain on the

> existing piping.

The Wire Nut

Boiler work...

Michael mentioned that someone replaced the pressurestat ("Honeywell thingy") last year. So someone did something to the boiler. Maybe it's underfired for the colder weather?

Alex....

Michael J

Alex,
Maybe, but I don't think it is.
The rads were working great all last year and for a month of cold weather this year. Then, they just stopped about 4 weeks ago.
Thanks. Michael J.

The Wire Nut

Long term...

Michael,

I'm thinking he could have done something that would have had a long term effect, like what you are experiencing. Such as removing leaking mains vents and putting plugs in, etc. Depends on if he was a "knucklehead" or not...

I'm just a homeowner, but it seems to me that if the pipes to the radiators are hot (are the radiator valves also hot (not the vents but the "on-off" valves)?) then I would guess some sort of condensate problem... With the boiler off, try opening the "nut" between the valve and the radiator and see if lots of water comes out. Pays to have a small pan or rag under to catch it. If there is, then there is a pitch problem with the radiator or with the risers from the main to the radiator. Also, if your boiler is piped incorrectly, you can have very "wet" steam which will create a lot of extra condensate and cause all sorts of issues.

Have you purchased any of Dan's books, such as "We've got Steam Heat"? Lots of good info there.

Hope you get warm soon...

Alex...

Michael J

Alex,
Thanks. I think you hit on something.
The guy who fixed my system last year turned the temp down a bit because the same system gives me direct hot (too hot) water for the kitchen and bath.
Maybe my condensate problem (I saw lots of water) could be from that. I'm also going to try to snake these feeder pipes now that I opened them by taking off the valves.
Also, thanks for the book referral. I would not have known what book to choose.
Thanks for helping. I hope to solve the problem this week - my vacation. Argh again.
MichaelJ

The Wire Nut

Temp...

Michael,

Glad I could help. This community is one of the great Dan created with this site.

It sounds like you have an "indirect coil" for hot water. This is essentially a long, convoluted pipe that sits in the boiler water. Your domestic (the stuff you wash with and drink) cold water passes through the pipe picking up heat indirectly (hence the name) through the pipe. That's your "domestic hot water" there is a separate thermostat called an "aquastat" that is on the side of the boiler, it has a probe that sits in the boiler water. It's job is to turn on the boiler if the boiler water falls below a preset level, generally around 140 deg.

During off-heating season, the aquastat keeps the boiler water temp at the preset level, which is why it runs in the winter, even with the thermostat turned down.

During the winter, your hot water is essentially "free" in that the boiler is already hot making steam. But boiling water is at least 212 deg so your hot water will be much hotter. Generally there is a mixer valve that adds a little cold water to the hot water to bring it down to the preset temp.

If the tech turned down the hot water, he probably adjusted the aquastat. It won't affect the winter steam production as it is only going to make sure the boiler water doesn't fall below the hot water temp. setting, which it generally won't do in the winter.

All that being said, I am not sure about snaking the pipes. If there is a very old system then it's possible there is some crud in there, but not likely enough to stop the heat. Snaking out the pipe is also a bad idea because you'll end up getting the crud in to the boiler and then it will recirculate throughout the system.

The prime thing to remember about steam heat is that the air in the pipes and the radiators has to come out for the steam to come in and replace it. The steam is at low pressure (should be set to 1 lb or less), and so you need good size vents on the main pipes (these are the Gorton #1,#2 and Hoffman 75 you may have read about). This is covered in Dan's book.

I've attached some photos of my old, bad header and the proper header that replaced it. I've also attached some pictures of main vents... Your systems piping may be different but still correct. You'll have to check your boiler's installation manual to be sure.

In a 1 pipe system such as you have, the condensate which forms when the steam cools has to get back to the boiler somehow. This is why radiators get pitched towards their valves. Also any horizontal runs will be pitched to allow the water to go back to the boiler, generally by another set of pipes in the basement called "the return". There are wet and dry returns but that's beyond me right now....

Steam boilers need to have the proper pipe setup to produce adequate and dry steam. There seem to be a lot of knuckleheads out there that don't read the manuals that come with the boiler and follow the piping diagrams in there. If it is not set up correctly, you'll produce bad steam loaded with water which will pile up in your radiators and pipes.

You can see some near boiler piping by going to "The Library" section of this site and selecting "Steam Piping". You may be able to download a copy of the installation and service manual for your boiler to check to see if it is, indeed, setup correctly.

If none of the things that were suggested work, do get a professional to get it set up correctly. You have a number of top notch "steamheads" in your area. You can use the "Find a Professional" section of the site to contact these guys. Once they get it running smoothly and properly tuned, then you can do some of the maintenance yourself.

I am just a homeowner who found this site 2 years ago and I have fallen in love with steam heat. It becomes a passion to many of the "wallies" here because of its simple elegance and efficiency. The old guys ("the deadmen" in Dan speak) manged to design amazing systems and solutions with the technology of the day. We are left to marvel at it and to preserve and maintain those systems.

If you want to see what the fuss is all about, get Dan's "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" which is available from this site. It covers the history, theory and practice of the art of the deadmen in a way that's clear, engaging and captivating...

Well, I've droned on and on. Hope this helps... Keep us up to date with your progress and seriously consider getting one of the pros to get it right for you... Then you can have some fun!

Alex

Michael J

Problem fixed

Men,
Problem fixed (I'm pretty sure).
Leave it to the local plumbing supply guy.
My system had too much water in the boiler (plus, my glass gauge was clogged so it was not giving a correct reading). So when steam was created, it was pushing water up and it stopped at the radiators (the furthest from the boiler - giving the steam time to cool down I suppose).
I still am tweaking the system after cleaning with "Squick"; the temperature, water level, vent amounts, etc...
Thanks again for all your help.
I've learned a ton as a new "wallie".
Michael J.