steam boiler co problem? don't know who to trust!

Mad Dog_2

The ones telling the truth look like alarmists and fear mongers. WE have to prove ourselves against nonchalant and uneducated techs that don't really check anything. I had a similar sitaution this week. Had my fyrite pro up and running, in the breech, showed the HO the the boiler was putting out 1000 ppm. He said: "I don't know who to believe...I had 3 other guys in here that said everything was fine." Even after I told him that the numbers don't lie and I cannot manipulate the machine, he was very suspicious. I quickly pulled ity out and put it a nearby water heater and fired up...she was running at 57 ppm. Only then did he believe. Very frustrating and a bit insulting. Mad Dog

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libby

Four people have now looked at my (24 year old but heating fine) steam boiler. Two have seen no issues and have gotten no co readings. My nighthawk co detector gets no readings. But two men (both from the same company) pick up readings (b/w 20 ppm and 55 ppm) on a special test certified by the national comfort institute that they claim is more sensitive than all others. They both said we should replace the boiler. They both also said don't bother calling the gas company for a reading because their equipment is out of date.

I don't know who to trust! While I don't think my house is unsafe, I have a baby and don't want to take chances. I'm waiting for yet another person to come out, someone who has been highly recommended to me, but he can't come out for 5 days.

Any thoughts or advice?

David Sutton_6

Hello

What type of fuel do you have?, if its oil you are going to have those readings, a good running new unit will show 25- 35 ppm, have the man that is recomended look at it. if there is cause for concern have fire dept check house for CO , CO is not a game or a chess pice to sell some one a boiler.have fire dept check house.

GW

co

Where are these readings coming from? There is nothing wrong with those readings at all. We are talking about reading in the flue gas, right? If those reading are coming from the air in the house, you have more problems than you want to know about. I'm a bit confused, what prompted this search for CO anyway? Maybe I'm missing something here.

gary

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Mitch_6

CO

I agree with Gary and David, I have taken the NCI course and am certified by them. They allow a gas boiler to have up to 100ppm in the flue gas as measured at the breach. You also need a good draft usually .01 to .02.

If there is co outside the boiler in the ambient air you are not allowed above 9ppm for over 8 hours. Normally I get a reading of zero in the living space I would be concerned of the source with any reading in the regular living space.

You should make sure your co alarm(s) can read low levels.
they should show numbers below 9ppm and start to alarm at 15ppm. Children the sick and elderly cannot tolerate over 30ppm. You should have detectors outside the boiler room at each living level and near sleeping areas. Typical installation height is head to bed.

When I have a co issue I contact or have the home owner contact the gas company and fire department for the final decision on shutting the equipment down since legally in my area the plumber is not considered an authority having jurisdiction but I have found the gas company in my area takes no chances and will shut down and tag an appliance if there is any question on safety. I also do this for the home owner to show an indipendent source and to cover myself incase some one tryes to fire up the equipment after I leave.

Mark Hunt

Up to 100ppm


Air free. She doesn't say and probably doesn't know whether those numbers she was given are diluted or not.

Mark H



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Mark Hunt

Libby


I can't make the call on your boiler without testing it myself.

What I can tell you is that the CO detector you have offers NO protection for your baby. If you read the packaging that came with it it says so.

While you and I may have a much higher tolerance for CO, infants do not.

I would suggest that you consider a low level CO alarm.

Where are you located?

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

bogus thread.

> Four people have now looked at my (24 year old

> but heating fine) steam boiler. Two have seen no

> issues and have gotten no co readings. My

> nighthawk co detector gets no readings. But two

> men (both from the same company) pick up readings

> (b/w 20 ppm and 55 ppm) on a special test

> certified by the national comfort institute that

> they claim is more sensitive than all others.

> They both said we should replace the boiler. They

> both also said don't bother calling the gas

> company for a reading because their equipment is

> out of date.

>

> I don't know who to trust! While

> I don't think my house is unsafe, I have a baby

> and don't want to take chances. I'm waiting for

> yet another person to come out, someone who has

> been highly recommended to me, but he can't come

> out for 5 days.

>

> Any thoughts or advice?





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Mark Hunt

bogus thread.



I had a feeling.

No return visit, no extra questions.

Bogus thread here folks. This did not happen.

Mark H

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libby

sorry for delayed response

Sorry for the delay, i moved my family out of my house because the technician said it was unsafe for my baby to be here. Now i'm here with a 4th pro, who is measuring and checking everything and says, again, he gets absolutely no co reading. The readings the last company got were, i should have said, in the flu gases and right at a pipe coming out of the boiler. There have never been any readings in the living spaces of my house. While I feel the house is safe, the head of the company told me about a possible connection between co levels and SIDS. What is a mother to do? The gentleman in my house now comes extremely highly recommended and he is examining every inch of the boiler. Other than it being oversized for my house, he sees no issues. I should mention that we've not had a problem with the boiler, the co problem company #1 found (or thought they found?) was at a regular yearly servicing. That same company serviced it last year too and didn't mention any issues.

Still concerned and confused, but I can't spend thousands of dollars if I don't need to. I suppose my plan is to buy a few low-level co detectors and hopefully that will ease my mind. Please let me know if anyone has recommendations for low-level detectors and where I can find them.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Weezbo

Libby, an honest tech is not a fear monger.

if i go stick a temp sensor in a forced draft fire and tell you the temp readings are at Dangerously High levels in your home, that isnt an altogether correct application of the English language or of that information.

Just so that the general public doesnt misunderstand what i mean by that i will make this statement clearer,yes the temp within the fire box is well over any normal temp within your environment , buh maintained within the boiler it is an entirely different matter.....

i am so sorry for anyone who propagates the total misapplication of these test results for invading a homeowners peace of mind and sowing suspicions and convulsion conjectures. the real problem as i see this is how on earth does a homeowner Know What something they are being told actually Means? i wish i could shrink my thoughts down into a formula to give the public, a means to weed out the bs being propagated from the truth.



p.s. i just spent hours putting together something and then erased it ,in its entirety ,as its just too much information, in other words, i am unable to drop anything light weight in after the truth.facts aren't truth. facts are dead. the truth is living.

jerry scharf_3

Hmmmm

Libby,

This seems very odd. If the 25 PPM was found in the undiluted stack (what you describe), these levels are completely fine.

On the other hand, having someone trained by NCI seem to give you wrong information seems unusual. I owuld contact NCI and explain the situation to them. They should be able to get an expert second opinion done on the situation.

As for CO detectors, check out www.aeromedix.com. They are not cheap, so you shouldn't need more than 1 per floor.

jerry


jerry

Jim Davis_3

The rest of the story

Libby I will give the information that I have received and then see if the contractors here can provide some additional insight.

300,000 BTU Steam Boiler (house actually needs about 60,000)
this has nothing to do with problem

Several 3" steam pipes are heavily corroded and should be replaced - this has nothing to do with problem

Chimney Draft = 0.0"W.C. chimney open-too small - part of the problem

CO during light-off 1200ppm. Measurable CO in mechanical room at this time-does not last long enough for Nighthawk to sense it, rises quickly up through structure.

CO in flue gas intially drops to 15ppm and then rises to 55ppm before boiler shuts off.

The Oxygen in the flue gas keeps dropping indicating displacement of combustion air in mechanical room by flue gases.

This equipment was being tested during milder weather conditions and because of sizing issue could not be operated very long. If it could the CO levels in the flue gases would have continued to rise into the hundreds and then thousands over time(1 hour, 4 hours, 8 hours, 10 hours?? unknown).

In class these are considered the most hazardous of all conditions and warrant immediate action.

Until you have investigated a condition like this in a court case where someone was severely injured, you should not take it lightly.

Mitch_6

Just a guess on Jim's info and questions for Jim.

Sounds like

1) Mechanical fresh air is needed.

2) Proper sized flue or liner with draft inducer/regulator.

I am confused by 300,000 boiler not being the problem if 60,000 is all that is needed. If you size to the radiation load for a steam system (Not loss), since you want to fill the system with steam and if you come up with 60K.

Then a grossly over sized boiler will.

A) Require a larger flue than needed.

Require more combustion air than needed.

C) Run to short to run up stack temps for proper draft.

D) Cause condensation that rots the flue and boiler out.

Information on the question above by Jim appreciated.

Mitch,

jerry scharf_3

Libby....your answer

Libby,

Here is the man to trust. You can look far and wide and find only a few other people in the US in Jim Davis' league. If he says replace the unit, do it.

If the unit is as oversized as Jim says, you will also save a bunch of money operating the unit. The other problems will need to be addressed as well.

jerry

libby

a little more info

Thanks again everyone for your advice and suggestions, and Jim I didn't realize you were on this site -- thank you for your suggestions over the phone last week.

Here is the latest info I have from the 5th person to look at my boiler -- I've now spent more than $600 just to get it looked at and cleaned! And forgive me if my terms aren't correct, before 2 weeks ago I knew absolutely nothing about boilers though I'm certainly learning fast...

fired boiler cold, 1st reading 4 to 6 ppm (in flu gases)

after boiler ran for 30 mins, 12-15 ppm (in flu gases)

gas manifold press was 4 wc and was adjusted to 3.2 to assist in the oversize issue

draft was .03 in wc. when basement door (to outside) was open went up to .04-.05. suggestion was to keep a little window open in the basement to help draft.

when basement door to outside was open co reading (in flu gases) went down to 11-12 ppm.

the pro who recorded all of this found nothing urgently wrong with the boiler except that the low water cutoff would not blow down and needs to be replaced. he agreed that the boiler is very oversized but said that that is not an urgent issue. he also measured co readings periodically over the 2 hours he was there and found nothing outside the flu gases.

i guess maybe everyone reads this board and i really am not meaning to contradict any professionals, just that everyone who has tested my boiler has told me something different. as a homeowner, it is quite confusing. but in the meantime i've rigged my co detector near the boiler and will continue to watch it closely (so for no readings). i will also buy a low level detector for the sleeping areas (thank you for the suggestion of where to get them).

The world of heating is one that i've not been a part of before, it's nice to see that there are so many people willing to give advice to each other and to homeowners like myself. If anyone has more comments based on my new info, it's all welcome! otherwise, i wish everyone a great new year.

thank you,
libby

Mitch_6

More info!

Information you are giving now is much different that the prior postings and will result in different advise.

Keeping a window open can also allow a down draft from the chimney if the air wishes to move that way.

A fan in the can or similar mechanical devise would be better.

Low level co alarms should be in living and sleeping levels.
I have had several cases that co has come in through compromises in the flue passageway and gone directly into the second floor living level.

Did the pro that dropped the manifold pressure check co again after that since fuel and air ratios are the essence of proper combustion. How did the co levels change after the pro did this.

Mitch

Dave Yates (PAH)

that's a rather wide diff

Libby,

Your last set of readings differ greatly from the ones Jim was given. Might be time to find out what equipment the pros used and dates of certification. I'd expect to see some variations due to different brands of analyzers "seeing" different levels, weather conditions altering natural draft/combustion and placement of probes by different contractors during sampling, but not the extremes listed in the threads here.



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Mad Dog_2

$600....even $5000 is money well spent Libby

and remember a basic pine box funeral costs much more than that. You will trust the man who spends the most time and can clearly explain - to you - what is wrong and what needs to be fixed. Mad Dog

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DanHolohan

Good analogy.

That's exactly the way I feel about Al Levi's Power! Packs

Mad Dog_2

And,,,where do you think I heard that first?????????

At one of Al's first seminars put on by Slant Fin. I've got his other books, and this year, I'll have to think about the powerpacks. His advice is sage, and he's been in the arena himself. Happy New Year you'll. Mad Dog

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Mitch_6

Testing Quality & H.O's,

Since the "test" results posted on this situation are all over the place does anyone here know the quality level of any of the pros that have checked the equipment.

Another item, I may get a second opinion from a Doctor, Lawyer or even accountant but why "ALL OVER THIS SITE" are the H.O.'S getting 3,4, 5 or more opinions (sound like a bad co reading)

I myself am tired of going on a call just to find I am one of many that have been called in until the H.O. gets what they want to hear and usually just to find out later on what the H.O. wanted to hear was not in their best interest, they are not happy with what was done (except the price) and are now looking for someone else to fix the patch.

Mitch,

P.s Would still like some info from Jim on my post 12/31/05

DeirdreLouisville

As a homeowner, I can tell you that I get a 3rd opinion when opinions 1 and 2 directly contradict each other. On more than one occasion, opinion number 3 turns out to be wildly different too. So, what does the HO do? Expert A says your problem is X and will cost Y dollars to fix. Expert B says no way, your problem is W and will only be x-$2000 to fix and then Good Old Expert C says they are both wrong , you clearly need a whole new system and it's going to cost x2. Sometimes I just keep going until I can get two "experts" to agree.....

Mitch_6

Direct Reply to DeirdreLouisville

Sorry let me better qualify my statement.

I have no problem when being called out for a second opinion when I am told ahead of time that is what it is and the H.O. knows they will be billed for it.

Many times I have gone out for my fellow tradesmen free of charge to help them out.

Its when I get called for a price on new equipment and the H.O. starts giving me this co said this and that co said that.

When I bid a job I do proper calculations for system sizing and other requirements dictated by the manufacturer, code and good piping practices etc.

It can take half a day to measure the house and existing radiation, a day in the office running the calculations for proper equipment sizing, then type out a proposal spelling out what I am doing and why (i.e for the pros proper piping and sizing for gravity hot water to modern boiler with pumps, bypasses, balancing valves and air removal system done in steel with a fan in the can for air and getting a sweep to certify the chimney and install a liner if needed)

"Same can be said for the steam system on this thread"

I bid a number like 8K the job goes for 6K I find out later no fan in can, bad chimney, no air removal, boiler done in copper no balancing valves, no flow checks or bypasses.

I have taken the time to properly specify my work. The other company walked in and said we will do it for x with no specifications.

The job is a mess the home owner is trying to get balance the company that did the install will not come back. For us to refit will make the job cost more than the difference between the two original prices.

You would be amazed how many times I have run into this situation ether bidding and specifying for "FREE" or being called in after the fact to fix it with the H.O. again calling in for the lowest price to fix the mess.

The H.O's have even said to me that three out of four said the same as me but this other guy was so much cheaper.

Some people just seem to ask for it.

I have had to go to extent that on cold calls for bid's I tell them I will have to chagre "$45.00" to come out, guess how many takers "0".

Not a typo forty five dollars to calculate all the above.

Sorry but this is how it is on the other side of the coin.

That is why I now only bid to existing customers and good referrals.

Mitch,

Jim Davis_3

Bandaids

Boiler is fixed with bandaids.

Cutting bad the gas pressure may temporarily create a properly sized chimney. But what problems have now been created.
1. The efficiency of the equipment has been reduced and the fuel bill is going to increase.
2. Lower gas pressure creates lower flue temperatures which can cause condensation in the flue and the chimney could deteriorate.
3. As draft increases this problem will get worse.

CO should always go down the longer the equipment runs and never higher.
Different analyzers and different test locations can produce a 200% difference in CO readings or more.
When I teach contractors they are told that the most dangerous conditions are rising CO readings no matter how slight they may be at the time.
I do believe this boiler could be fixed the right way to address the safety issue(not cutting back the gas pressure and leaving the basement door open)but beside the safety issue I believe the contractor did not believe this would be a good investment and would continue to cause excessive fuel bills for a long time. I wish someone had given me the Oxygen in the flue gas and the flue temperature. Would also recommend checking the flue temperature above the draft hood. Any temperature below 250 degrees will not exit the flue before it condenses in most cases.
As long as there is a low level CO Monitor in the house at least if the problem decides to worsen, you will be warned. The one in the basement may never do anything.

Mitch_6

question to Jim

Any response on my questions 12/30 said 12/31 in early-er posting sorry. Even though the numbers are everywhere now I would like to know for my own info.

Anyone you know going to take a look for some solid numbers.