CO with new GB142 install

Mad Dog_2

But in the Court of personal responsibilty, I, as the contractor would feel responsible, as ultimate responsibilty falls on me. Especially given the fact that most utility workers today are NOT on the ball. I asked a gas meter reader last year if he knew what a therm of gas was....he said he had never heard the word before! I swear, I almost fell down. He continued on his merry way punching numbers in to his little "idiot" box that takes the readings. To be fair I see the same with alot of oil techs. The old timers had a good working knowledge of not just the burners but the system as a whole. All these youngsters NEED ALOT of training. I hope they are taking advantage of all the free info here and the seminars. Mad Dog

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central VT

CO poisoning

We had our heating contractor install a new GB 142/24 in our home (new construction). That night I was doing some tile work upstairs and started to feel light headed and sick. Left immediately and the next morning we called the gas company and contractor. We had 999ppm in the basement and upwards of 700ppm on the floors above. It turns out that he had thought the gas company had installed the conversion from Nat gas to LP and they thought he would do it. He also never added any water to the reservoir inside the boiler to trap gasses. Luckily no one was seriously hurt but was wondering which one of these mistakes was more likely to cause. The boiler showed no signs of black soot or smoke and the flame inside appeared to be ok. Just wondering.

Ted_9

Not having the drain trap filled with water will let the exhaust gases out .

You are very lucky.

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Mad Dog_2

Indeed you are VERY lucky

WHERE????? did you get this guy? Doesn't sound very thorough to me. The GB and all these condensing boilers ARE "rocket Science in a box." A qualified installer is an absolute must. The directions TELL you the reservoir must be filled. This guy owes you. Thank God you are ok. Mad Dog

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central VT

So it sounds like asking him to pay the bill for the gas company comming out, would not be out of the question.

Mad Dog_2

Absolutely Not!

I would be mortified if I did that. Stuff gets overlooked occasionally, but something of this import could very easily have been tragic. Mad Dog

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singh

Both

Both drop the ball in my opinion.
Propane co. should have checked conversion sticker was
on unit or over the sticker that says this heater is NG.
Trap should have been filled, but if it was'nt and set up for
LP , I think the CO levels are below 30PPM.

You are very fortunate.

Did you have CO monitors?

singh

I agree.

I would be very upset, if I did that. I would feel responsible.

As a youngin' I know I have much to learn MD.
But I know a few old timers who would be very intimidated
by something such as the GB.

I'm willing to bet the installing contractor above had more than 20 years
experience. Why do I say this, because he did not read the instructions, that says fill the trap, or was too embarassed to ask how.Probably thought he knew it all. I bet he won't make this mistake again though. Thank goodness
no one got hurt on his learning curve.

Mad Dog_2

The first Condensing boiler I put in .........................

scared the crap out of me. Gb Included. This is serious stuff. I worry about mishaps like that. It took me several years in plumbing and a few classes to even look at an oil burner. My first boiler... I was very nervous. But instead of just walking away, I wanted to learn what the worst things that could happen were. Thats how I met Hunt. To learn about CO. We both traveled down to Penn at our own expense to study it. I never underestimate my opponent and always play it safe by doing my homework and doing numerous checks after the work is done. Cuts back on callbacks too. Looking fowaRD To meeting you, in FEb Singh. Mad Dog

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hr

Are you sure it's fixed!

I've not installed that brand. Most condensors that I have installed will fill the condensate trap within 15 minutes or so by themselves.

Not an excuse to miss that important step, or the conversion, but... I would still look into the venting. Could be a leak in that system STILL.

hot rod

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Glenn Harrison_2

I was just thinking the same HR

I have installed four GB142 units, and all of them willed the traps by itself within 30 minutes at the most.

I am thinking there is a serious leak in the exhaust piping, or there is an exterior leak in the house that allowed the gasses back into the house after being purged from the boiler.

Reguardless of the conversion not having been done, I am convinced something else is terribly wrong here.

I just re read the original post. When you were doing the tile work, was there any gasoline appliances running in or near the house, such as a generator, tile cutter, air compressor, maybe a work truck left running, etc? Did anybody actually test the exhaust gasses coming out of the PVC flue to make sure it achived 900 or more PPM?

Steven_4

No one did any kind of test

No other machines or heaters were running. It was definetely the boiler. He did forget to run the condensate line (spelling?), so he just had a bucket underneith the boiler. He came back the next day to attach the cup (drain under the boiler) and finish the drain line from the exhaust. He has it dripping into a bucket right now because he forgot to drill into the slab and run it under the house. He said that he will be back this week to do that.

[Deleted User]

Get yourself a small pump...

and drop it in the bucket and get it to a higher drain. You don't want to be on the hook for bucket maintenance manually. And if you forget, you could be looking at a water damage potential.

Some peoples kids...I'm tellin' ya..

Send the bums here, WE'LL teach 'em!

Does this job get any kind of municipal type of inspections??

ME

central VT

Mark

He is going to drill throught the concrete slab and drain it under the slab. Is this ok?

Big Ed

CO

The high levels was caused by the lack of conversion. The reason it entered the structure was lack of water in the trap.Who is at fault is the one who first turned on the switch .A CO meter would have picked up a combustion problem .Condensate mist leaking into the room was another flag. Who flipped the switch with out doing the check list ?

Mad Dog_2

I think that depends what she's firing up to

If its a higher temp zone, its not going to do much condensing right away. As HR and Glenn said this puppy needs a good going over by a pro a GB installer to boot. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

DON\"T let this guy back in your house...........................

Just what your footings and foundation need in a Vermont Winter.....lots of water. NO GOOD! Look, Mark Hunt isn't that far, and I know he consults as well. It would be $$$$ well spent to have him or Darin come out and go over everthing. Shucks! Ken Secor even lives in Vermont too. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

NO! Thats the easy way out for him

headaches for you down the line. Don't get me wrong, we'll sometimes pop a small dry well in a boiler room for the occassional flood or bucket of water, but NOT for a condensing boiler. Mad Dog

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[Deleted User]

Sounds to me...

as if the contractor hadn't even installed the trap at first fire...

ME

[Deleted User]

Unacceptable...

Not accepted by code nor common sense.

ME

central VT

How do you deal with the condensation?

If drilling into the slab is wrong, where do you drain the water?

Tony_23

hold it

finish the drain line from the exhaust ? Do you mean there was an open tap in the exhaust pipe ? YIKES !!!!!

DON'T let him drain it under the slab, either. Pump it to a drain. Unless you want to give "cave tours" under your house 10 years from now and open a B&B

Mad Dog_2

Might give Howe Caverns a run for the $$$$$$$$

I repeat. You need Mark and Darin to scope it out. If this guy was so blatantly remiss on the straightfoward stuff....it scares me to think of what he did on the hidden stuff. Mad Dog

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[Deleted User]

The condensate...

should be neutralized first with a bucket full of marble of crushed lime stone, then discharge into an approved saintary sewage disposal system in accordance with plumbing code provisions.

ANd don't let him just drill a hole in your plumbing stack to get rid of it. That's not considered an approved method.

ME

Mad Dog_2

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Mark Hunt

Folks


I spoke with this homeowner this today. We tried to hook up for this project but logistics prevented it.

Anyway, I will do what I can for him.

All he wants is a safe and comfy house.

More on this to come.

Mark H

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S Ebels

You're a good man Mark

I don't care what Darrin says ............. (G)

From what I read on this post and the other one concerning the indirect, I think it's safe to assume that the installer never cracked the GB manual open other than to see what was the top and bottom. At 900PPM in the house (if I read that correctly) there has to be an issue with the venting as well as the orifice. It's a wonder these folks aren't dead! When you talk to him again urge him to get someone else in there or else meet the original installer at the door with the manual in hand and make him read it while he watches. You know as well as I do that these aren't "your father's boiler", and you have to know what you are doing.

One of the good folks at Viessmann told me that a big reason all of Viessmann's stuff isn't available here is because they don't think the "American installer" is up to it. After reading this post...........sad to say, but they are probably right for the most part.

Mark Hunt

Sent you an e-mail


I got more details on the CO side of this and I relate some of them in the thread I started (another look).

This homeowner will be taken care of, I promise.

I must warn all of the non-testers out there though. I have tried to appeal to your sense of doing what is right. I have appealed to your sense of humanity. I have implored you all to consider the families whose lives you directly impact. Yet I still get stories like this.

So now, I may just offer my services to any lawyer looking to sue the crap out of a "Pro" that happened to be the last guy out where someone was hurt or killed.

In the words of "Dirty Harry".............."Do you feel lucky punk???"...........

Mark H

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jerry scharf_3

A meter in your hand or a laywer in your pocket

Your choice!

Mark, I say it's time to go for it.

jerry

central VT

Thanks for all of the good advice

I just wanted to thank everyone on this site that has added something to this thread. I have a hard time getting lawyers involved but just hope that the installer will pay for all of the bills that are involved with getting the system running correctly.. I have spoken with Mark Hunt and sent him pictures of the install to date. I think we are in good hands and just wanted to say thanks.
Steve

singh

Curious?

Help me understand, Steve.
Contractor thought propane guys were converting unit, propane guys thought it was done already by contractor. Where was the conversion kit, still in a bag out of sight?? Did not propane guy look at the cleary marked sticker on unit that says NG?
OK, propane is hooked up, who actually opened up the gas valve and flipped the switch on to the unit. I take it contractor was not present when propane co. was there. Someone fired it up. Even though install was incomplete,by lack of condensate piping.
Did anyone use a manometer intially. I'm sure the propane guys would have at least checked that,and realized that conversion was not done?
Around my way, propane co. techs are pretty good, even though I try to be present when gas is available, they usually won't open anything unless I'm ready to fire unit up and they check for gas leaks, even after I done my tests and checked for leaks. Sometimes they come back for a second visit,if I'm not ready.
Who eventually did the conversion, and was testing and set up done after?
We don't know the FULL STORY here.