Pre-historic Vapor System?

Steamhead (in transit)

it was customary to hook indirect radiation up as two-pipe, even if the rest of the system was one-pipe. This is especially true if the indirect rads were located below the steam main.

You probably don't need that condensate pump. Not sure what to tell you about those possible vent locations in the basement, unless they were for rads that have been removed, I'd have to see the system.

Where did you find this one?

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Steam Bunny

Vapor System?

Can anyone give a preliminary ID to what remains of this system?

Am not yet positive, but it's possible, at one time, all the one pipe radiators had air vents (see red) installed in the basement. If so, they've been removed from radiators on 2 of the 3 mains.

A Hoffman vent is installed at the end of each Main. No F & T traps accompany the condensate pump.

Both pressuretrols are set @ 4 lbs, but leery/ignorant re the pump am tentatively reluctant to tinker.

Is this a case where curiosity might get the cat? er.... bunny?

Steam Bunny

Original boiler was an American Radiator, with a footprint larger than a standard bathroom.

System is across the street from us & our Mouat system. I exaggerated when I reported 4 lbs- both pressuretrols are set to 2 lbs.

It appears to be a 1 pipe system with a 1/2 inch "dry return" following the main & tapping into the radiator vent ports (see bathroom rad). Indirects also tap into this "dry return" via adorable crossover traps (see crossover). House built in 1905. A pre Mouat (system) I don't know if it's pre Mouat (the person) as his home is just down the street.

2 end-of-mains have the green Hoffman (75??) vents. The 3rd sprawls with Hoffman 4a's off (single/double radiator) end-of-main drips and Hoffman 40's perhaps on the (disconnected from radiators) dry return. (Lack of experience limits my observational abilities) There's been no maintenance during the past 35 +++years. Condensate pump was added with #2 boiler, #3 boiler was installed 2 years ago. Near Boiler piping only meets Weil Mclain minimum specs and (what I saw of) wet return isn't pitched so returning to Gravity feed might be an iffy proposition, but certainly something I'd encourage her to look into.

Ductwork from each Indirect also had capability of taking outside air from Lake Erie shoreline for a passive air conditioning system and/or fresh air intake?????. An open/close damper is in each duct. (see traffic jam)

Could this system have a name, or is it caught somewhere in between the evolution of steam heating systems? Am happy to take extra photos, if needed.

gerry gill

called a ''Paul'' system..

just about every manufacturer made these..they were called air line systems..everyone calls them paul systems, after its inventer, Andrew Paul..there was a vacuum pump that sucked the air out so the steam could get into the radiators quicker..hoffman still makes the paul vents...it should be restored..it would save on money..there was many methods of inducing a vacuum..a pump..a venturi, either steam driven or water driven..the indirects allowed fresh air into the house for ventilation purposes and it of course was heated by the indirect..chester castle has the same..you probably know the building..think its at 75th & chester..

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gerry gill

and get that stinkin condensate pump

outta there......gravity never fails...

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Steamhead (in transit)

Gerry nailed it

but actually a Dead Man named Skiffington came up with the idea. Andrew Paul acquired rights to it, marketed the heck out of it and became the Dead Man everyone associates with this type of system.

This system, outlined in chapter 15 of Lost Art, used a steam-driven ejector to create vacuum which pulled the air from the system. Not sure how we'd do it now, maybe a small Shipco vac pump or similar?

At least one manufacturer- Hoffman- still makes the #3 radiator vent that attaches to the vent lines in the Paul system.

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Jacob Myron_18

Ancient steam system

What you probably have is a one pipe steam grarity vacuum steam system.

1905 is pre Paul.

Vacuum developed in the system as the steam cooled and condensed. The master vent valve or the individual radiator valves had had air checks built into the vent valve. The air check prevented air from entering the radiator and as a result vacuum occured.

Some of these old systems developed as much as 26" Hg.

As I look at the drawing I see the condensate pump is not vented.

If you do not have vacuum vent valves on the system and do not wish to change the system to a two pipe system with a vacuum pump. Install a steam trap at the end of the steam main and then install a vent on the condensate pump. Make sure you have a check valve on the discharge side of the condensate pump.

Operate the system as a one pipe steam system and forget about identifying some thing that some butchered a long time ago.


Jake

Steam Bunny

Butchered Ancient Steam System

Condensate pump is vented- my drawing is that of a lay novice. My apologies.

What happens in the F&T/Condensate pump arrangement if the crossover traps from the indirects fail? Because the wet return is being used as a drain I wonder if they're already freely passing steam only to warm the passing condensate.

Presuming it’s too late for her to realistically/economically do away with the condensate pump (as an alternate to the F & T traps) could she have a false water line installed & then replace the existing (main & radiator) vents with Gortons?

gerry gill

whose name is on those

crossover traps..out of curiosity...it might help determine whose air line system it really was..maybe..

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Steam Bunny

one pipe gravity vacuum steam system

Hi Gerry,

I couldn't get up the 10 feet needed to see and didn't push the issue as I suspect name is on cap just under ceiling. They appear to be quite small (compare size to brick) & refined.

I've blown up photo- If my memory is correct, the trap feeds into the air line, so I suspect steam is able to freely pass from the 2 pipe indirects into the now "dry" wet return to heat up returning condensate.

I was wondering why the pressure gauge always sat at 0. With vent on condensate pump & no wet return or F & T traps isn't she destined to sit at 0 pressure?

I think with the help from The Wall, owner's begun to appreciate what she has and will raise her expectations regarding who she'll use to help get the system working a bit more efficiently. And eventually, maybe we'll begin to educate this sleepy 'home of Mouat' village in order to salvage some of the historic remains.