Replacing original 1923 two-pipe steam boiler

Garret

Thanks for the quick reply. I love steam, honestly! I'd love to stay with it.. I'm only considering the change if it makes sense for energy efficiency. Maybe I'm easy game for the hot water sales guys... the idea of climate reset appeals to me. It seems like a idea to have a boiler that can send cooler water out on warmer days, rather than a steam boiler that can only send one temperature. Then again, I guess that's why these lovely radiators are 500 pounds of cast iron... they hold heat for a long time, so the steam system just heats em up less frequently on a warmer day.

There would indeed be a lot of conversion work and risk if we converted to hot water. At minimum, we'd have to get working air vents in all the radiators... out of 9, I think only two look like they'll open. I'd guess the rest would need to be filed, drilled, and retapped. Then I think we'd need new valves for every radiator... the old ones leak a little steam now, so I'd guess they'd leak a ton of water if we converted. :)

I'll take some pictures of the whole system tomorrow after work.

I think I've read just about every thread on this site about converting steam systems, but I'll go re-read the one you referenced now. ;) Maybe this time it'll sink in.

Best,
-Garret

Garret

replacing 1920s two-pipe steam, original boiler...

Greetings folks... We have a lovely two-story brick house in Central Illinois, built in 1923. It has an Ideal #7 cast iron boiler, originally coal (I still have a few bushels in the cellar if anyone needs some!) and converted to natural gas at some point. It's a two-pipe steam system. The footprint of the house is 25ft x 33ft. The basement is unheated... so heated sq footage is about 1650. The attic is insulated with 6-8" of cellulose, but I don't think there's anything in the walls except plaster, lath, and 4" of brick. We've upgraded the upstairs windows with high efficiency marvin inserts, and intend to do the downstairs as soon as we can. They're original single pane w/ storms now.

As you can imagine, the bills this year have just about killed us... so I don't think I can put off the upgrade any longer. Something more efficient is going in as soon as the heating season is over... the only questions are 1) what and 2) how big.

I'm trying to do my homework in advance of talking to a bunch of contractors, to make sure we make the best decision possible. First things I've been trying to do are to ballpark the heat loss of the house, and the installed radiation. That will (hopefully) help me to decide how large of a boiler to put in, and whether to convert from steam to hot water.

I met with one contractor today, who took a look at the system and rec'd a boiler "sized the same" as what we have now. He took his figures from the plate on the gas burner, which is spec'd at min=60,000 Btu/h, max=200,000 Btu/h. So he's thinking our house needs 200,000 Btu/h.

That seemed way oversized to me. According to my math, we have no more than 120,000 btu/hour of installed radiation. (I can upload pics and write up the sizes our 9 radiators if anyone's interested in double-checking this.)

I've run through heat loss calcs with the SlantFin Hydronic Explorer software, and several other ballpark estimates, and by some gas bill shenanigans, and I can't get any estimate above 70,000 Btu/hour.

So my thought has been that we should convert the system to hot water, reducing the installed radiation to a max output of 75,000 Btu/hour.

So I guess the main questions are

1) Am I nuts to think 200,000 Btu/hour is waaaay oversized for our house?

2) Do you agree that converting to hot water would be a good idea? I know it's going to cost a little bit more to do the conversion, but I'm willing to wait 10-15 years for a payoff. We're not going anywhere -- we love the house, and they're going to bury us in the back yard. So if there is efficiency to be gained in converting to hot water, I want to do it now when we have a chance. I haven't told my cats yet, though... they love it when the steam kicks in.

Thanks for the help!
-Garret

Steamhead (in transit)

It's much easier and less risky

to stay with steam. Actually, what you have is probably a Vapor system. Almost all residential 2-pipe steam systems of that age were Vapor- designed to run at 8-16 ounces of pressure. This was the Cadillac of heating in its day and is still one of the best out there.

Trying to convert this system to hot water can have some dire consequences. Read this article:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=22

I just got hold of some case studies where systems like yours were converted. In the fine print it mentions that they were in rather poor condition, so the heat distribution was extremely uneven, and parts of the buildings were being overheated so the colder parts could get at least some heat. They tout the more-even distribution and resulting fuel savings, but I can get the same results by just fixing the distribution problems and maybe installing a more-efficient steam boiler.

And no mention is made of problems like leaks, velocity noise or any other pitfalls mentioned in the above link. They don't even mention that there weren't any problems, which makes me wonder. I really think these people had their own agenda, which was to create more work for someone. They didn't understand steam, and didn't want to. They certainly did not read "The Lost Art of Steam Heating"! But you should.

If you think you have too much radiation, the thing to do is remove some. Then if the house still heats OK, size the new boiler accordingly.

And don't forget, a hot-water system can freeze up and burst in a long power failure. This often results in a total loss. But a steam system drains dry when it shuts down, except for some pipes in the basement and the boiler itself.

Have you found any manufacturer's names on the system components other than the boiler? This will help us ID your system and get more specific. Take some pics of the boiler area and a couple radiators too, and post them here.



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Patrick Linhardt, \"Linhardt's Field Guide to Ste

stay the course

Hi Garret,

You don't mention any problems with your system, i.e. uneven heating, other than the radiator valves. Are there any?

If not, stay with steam. If there are, stay with steam if they can be corrected, most can.

The energy inprovements for heat loss are a great idea and should continue. You have decreased the required radiation, and consequently may remove some if you like as Steamhead suggests. Depending on the supply valves that are installed, you can "dial down" capacity to the radiators by shutting off the valves. The radiator does not have to get completely warm to overcome the new heat loss of the room.

Chances are, since they already leak, they might not want to pudge. This is where an investment in new thermostatic operated radiator valves (TRVs) might look good. You can have individual control of the temperature of each room, saving energy to boot. The cats will find the warm ones, it'll be good exercise for them as they wander the house feeling for the warmth of a hot radiator.

The TRVs will also self balance the system for sun exposure or other conditions. Just don't put a TRV in the room with the t-stat.

You may even request advice on systems that have been "undersized" based on heat loss vs. square foot capacity of existing radiation. I'm sure someone will share their experiences.

Since you don't have to fill the system, you may not need the larger boiler. You do need to balance the steam flow however. The steam produced has to be directed to achieve a steam balance (condition) throughout the system. Otherwise, the farthest radiators won't get warm enough (uneven heating caused by an undersized boiler).

Be careful downsizing, other considerations are water content in the existing boiler(large) vs. water content in the new boiler(small), unusual piping and pick-up factors, and/or peace of mind.

Find a good professional in your area to discuss your options, nothing beats a site visit.

Best regards, Pat

Garret

problems with the existing system

Thanks very much for the advice, Pat.

Other than the tremendous fuel cost, we don't have any problems with the existing system. It seems to be well balanced and (when we can afford to keep the heat on) the house stays surprisingly even. The house is plaster + brick... My guess is those materials dampen out temperature fluctuations significantly, compared to modern materials like vinyl siding (ack) and drywall. And it's not particular loud either... just a few pings when it starts up.. no major knocking.

Cheers,
-Garret

Guy_6

Steam

Keep in mind that a new steam boiler will generate all of the necessary steam in considerably less time (therefore less $).

Long Beach Ed

Steam...

As the others have said, stay with the steam. It can be very efficient.

The boiler must be sized properly. Unless an installer is willing to measure the radiators and calculate the needed capacity, run away from him. Anyone who can't properly size a boiler woun't properly pipe it and your bills will be HUGE!

Then service the system. Change the traps, if there are any, replace the ancient main vents and you should be on the road to savings.

Long Beach Ed

Garret

pictures and radiator measurements

Alright here are a bunch of pictures of most of our radiators, and the boiler and piping in the basement. If I missed anything important, just let me know and I'll run back down with the digital camera.

http://www.worksongs.net/photos/2006-02-Boiler-Replacement/

Regarding the radiators... I've taken pictures of the major styles we have. Here's my estimate of the installed radiation. Sizing numbers are coming from various sources I saw referenced here, plus this one I found on Burnham's website. (http://www.burnham.com/pdfs/htghelper.pdf - page 42). That's the only place I found a figure for 13" wide window units. That chart doesn't say 6 columns, but it does imply it's more than 4 given the placement as the last column in the table. *asterisked rooms aren't in my photographs.

living room:
two matching rads, each is 20" high, 13" wide, 6 columns, 12 sections
@ 5 sqft EDR/section = 60 sqft EDR each
we've been running with one of these shut off, and it's plenty warm

dining room:
20" high, 6 columns, 14 sections
@ 5 sqft EDR/section = 70 sqft EDR

front entranceway:
38" high, 3 columns, 11 sections
@ 5 sqft EDR/section = 55 sqft EDR

kitchen:
31" high, 3 columns, 7 sections
@ 4.5 sqft EDR/section = 32 sqft EDR

kid's bedroom:
20" high, 7 tubes, 13 sections
@ 3.66 sqft EDR/section = 48 sqft EDR

bathroom:
modern wall mounted steam radiator
11 sq ft EDR from manufacturer's data

master bedroom:
24" high, 4 columns, 12 sections
@ 4.75 sq ft EDR/section = 57 sqft EDR

*office:
13" high window unit, 6 columns, 14 sections
@ 3 sq ft EDR/section = 42 sqft EDR

*second kids bedroom:
32" high, 6 tubes, 10 sections
@ 5 sq ft EDR/section = 50 sqft EDR


So the grand total is 485 sqft EDR. At 240 Btu/sqft EDR, that's 116,000 Btu/hour if both of the living room rads are on, 101,600 Btu/hour with one of them off.

-Garret

Steamhead (in transit)

Interesting- a hybrid Illinois/Webster Vapor system

The regular-pattern traps are Webster, and the outboard style traps are Illinois. Maybe a bunch of traps were replaced at some time? Those American Corto tubular rads are newer, wonder if some of the originals leaked?

I see one problem right away. If I'm reading this right, the two Hoffman #75 vents are at the ends of the steam mains and the Arco Hurivent is on the dry return. These should all be changed. The dry return should have a Gorton #2. For the steam mains, measure their length and diameter and we can tell you what's needed. Yes, inadequate venting can jack the fuel bill up.

Those low radiators are 6-column window units. They look like they were made by Pierce, Butler & Pierce Co, and are rated 5 square feet per section. So your chart is correct.

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Garret

Dang, I'm back at work now and have to wait all day to get back to it.

Most of the radiators are the older column style, but there are a couple of those tubular rads. I'm not sure why it would have changed... one possibility is that the upstairs rads were changed when dormers were added. From folks who've worked on the siding & roofing, I've had conflicting guesses whether our dormers are original or not... you can see what I'm talking about in this photo:

http://www.worksongs.net/photos/2004/2004-10-House/slides/IMG_5582.JPG

I noticed something else this morning, and deserve a dope slap. It's been a few years since I checked my steam traps, and I thought they were working fine last time. Three of em seem to be failing now... and one is the trap on that modern wallmount in the bathroom. It's a hoffman specialty 17c. When the system is pushing steam, and the radiator is hot, the return side of the trap is reading 180 deg. Most of the rads in the house read 66 degrees or so.

That new one is the hottest. Two of the others are also reading hot. The kitchen radiator reads 150deg, and the office radiator reads about the same.

I'm so thankful a forum like this exists. I just wish I'd discovered it sooner.

I've had three or four different maintenance crews out for "annual checkups" of this system, and no one has checked the vents or traps. Basically they've just taken the burner out and cleaned it, checked the safeties, etc...

-Garret

Patrick Linhardt, \"Linhardt's Field Guide to Ste

other suspects

Hi Garret,

Always suspect the traps, but it could be the hand valves. Two pipe steam can be about balance in the supply lines. The original hand valves may have had an internally adjustable feature or orifice to "meter" the amount of steam into the radiators. Since the "new" radiator is the hottest, I'd suspect that a replacement valve was installed and that it is not "metering" the steam. In other words, the steam is being held back in all the original hand valves, but cruising right through the "new" valve. More steam equals more heat.

If this is the case, you can test the theory quite easily. Take the "new" hand valve and shut it off completely. Then open it at most one-eighth. This should approximate the effect of an orifice or internal adjustment if the valve is working. However, there will be a problem if the hand valves cannot open and close easily or effectively.

A temperature reading of 180F after the trap is acceptable, we expect a twenty degree or so drop from the temperature of steam at 214F at one pound. So you are OK there. Do the other two radiators that get hot have replacement valves?

Best regards, Pat

Garret

Ah, okay that makes sense. A steam trap holds back steam, but, doesn't check the temperature of the water it passes by... most of my radiators have so much cast iron that they use up all of the heat before sending water into the returns. But some are oversupplied, so the return water is still relatively hot.

I think the valve in the office is a replacment. It's a funny-looking thing, with a little metal finger-tip knob about 3/4" diameter, rather than a big wooden or plastic handle of several inches.

The other radiator that is reading high has a supply valve like any other in the house.

That new radiator is small and made of light-weight steel... I'll try throttling it back and see if the return temperature drops.

-Garret

Patrick Linhardt, \"Linhardt's Field Guide to Ste

how a trap works

Hi Garret,

The radiator trap works to keep steam in the radiator, but allow the water and air to pass through to the return line, AIR OUT: air passes to the main vent(s) and WATER BACK: water flows back to the boiler.

The bellows inside reacts to the temperature of the surrounding medium. The following example is based on traps at or near sea level, the temps change with elevation, but the principle of temperature difference remain the same. The bellows of the trap has to cool down between 10 to 20 degrees lower than the temperature of the steam to allow the condensate and/or air to pass.

If its air below 212F, the bellows is contracted, and air passes through the trap. If its water below 212F, the bellows is contracted, and water flows through the trap. Sometimes water has to build up around the bellows in the trap body to cool the bellows below 212F.

If its steam at 212F or above, the bellows extends, closing the pin in the seat to trap steam in the radiator. The condensate then collects in the body of the trap to cool itself and the bellows to start another cycle of opening and closing.

This all happens when the steam has been on long enough to get to the end of the radiator, or the system is out of balance and steam is favoring that radiator above the others because of size, weight, vent rate, location in system, pressure drop through radiator valve, etc.

Let us know how the experiment goes.

Best regards, Pat

JJ_4

Keeping Steam

Garret,

I am in the same boat as you. I have a single pipe steam system, with condensate returns at the end of each loop, that is 83 years old. My original coal boiler was replaced about 40 years ago, or more, with an HB Smith gas fired unit.

I have done similar research as to sizing and found that the "new" boiler is waaay oversized for the amount of radiation installed. I used Burnham's calcs and came up with a total of 66,000 BTUH, while the boiler is rated at 200000 input (maybe more).

Like you, I have been drawn into various contractors who just think I should "replace it with a hot water system". I can't convert because it is single pipe. Besides I do like the steam and 15K for a hot water system would hurt.

My main frustration is finding someone who will work on and potentially replace the boiler and make repairs on the condensate piping. (Anyone out there that knows someone in Denver, Colorado please let me know).

Anyway, as most of the other posters say, I am convinced that keeping the steam is the way to go. Good luck with your quest and keep me posted. I would be interested in what you end up with and what boiler you use.

Regards,

Jon

GusHerb

interesting

bathroom radiator i saw an antique version once

Garret

That's a modern wall-mount steam radiator, purchased from a company out of Massachussets (www.steamradiators).

We remodeled the bath a few years ago, and it seemed like a good idea to spend a bit of cash to clear some floor space in what is a very small (and only) bath for this house. And it's worked out well.. the plumbers who put it in thought it was a good unit, and it's just big enough for the space.

It wasn't cheap ($500 or so for the unit, plus labor), but I couldn't find any similar salvage units... maybe if I'd known about this board then.

-G

Rich Dickinson The Plumbing Shoppe

Has anyone had problems with Honeywell 24v zone valve end switch not closing tt on boiler? Paddle makes contact & pushing button does not always work either. Zone valves on same relay work fine. Replace zv head with new switch works fine. Yet on test bench old one shows continuity every time. I've experienced this half doz. times. It's just a switch, what gives? Rich

gerry gill

if you take those old traps off

for any reason, and you felt like sending them to me i'd test them for you and let you know how much air they can pass..i'd send them back of course..they do have to be working traps tho.. i know the illinois isn't on the venting capacity chart..not sure about the webster..which webster is it? kind of looks like an 02h.

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GusHerb

kewanee

just out of curiosity your dining room rad looks like it is made by kewanee was it? I have kewanee rads.

Garret

I'm not sure about the dining room radiator. But the one in the front entranceway is a Kewanee (there's a tag on the side you can still mostly read.)

The dining room radiator has some embossing on one of the plugs that looks like the letters US or SN on it... but I can't find Kewanee on that one.

-G

Garret

> Let us know how the experiment

> goes.


Just my luck, we got a warm spell. It's about 40 out there and the heat hasn't had to do much...

I looked at the valve on the bath radiator. Indeed it was wide open. And interestingly enough, it's labeled on the top as a Hot Water valve. So I really doubt it has an orifice or internal adjustment. I turned it off all the way, then opened it back up just a little bit.

I also took another look at the kitchen radiator's valve. It is not original, and looks much newer, at least 1960s. So it's possible that one is also just a hot water valve with no orifice. I throttled that one back a little bit too.

We'll see if that improves things. Now I'm off to measure my steam mains for Steamhead.

You guys are the best.

-Garret

GusHerb

rad

I ment the foyer one and thanks for the info.

Garret

Measured the mains

We have two diameters... 2 1/4" and 2 3/4". The rectangle bounding the whole system is 12 ft 9" by 26 ft.

http://www.worksongs.net/photos/2006-02-Boiler-Replacement/slides/steam-mains.gif

And you are reading the photos correctly.. the Hoffman #75 vents are on the mains. One is directly above the boiler, and the other is where the two mains meet again, after wrapping around the basement. The little black Arco vent is on a return line. It's the only vent I could find for the returns.

-G

Garret

Thanks for the offer. The webster trap in the kitchen is a 512HB.

Steamhead (in transit)

The outside diameter of a black steel pipe

in these sizes, is 1/4-inch larger than the inside diameter. So you have 2-1/2" and 2" pipe.

Vent the 2-1/2" with two Gorton #2 vents and the 2-inch with a single Gorton #2.

The drips from both steam mains should drop below the boiler's waterline before tying together. This will keep air from pushing from one main into the other. If this means running two overhead lines to the boiler area, so be it. The main vents should be located right after the last radiator connection on each main.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Call Dave Stroman

can't remember what his company name is, but you should be able to find it thru the Find a Professional page of this site.

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Garret

Interesting! It looks like we don't have any venting now on one of the steam mains, since the two existing vents are on the same steam main -- one is right on top of the boiler, and the other is as you described (just after the last radiator connection).

I think the drips already drop down to the floor before tying together. I was oversimplifying things by saying they meet again after wrapping around the basement... It's hard to see in this picture because of the angle.
http://www.worksongs.net/photos/2006-02-Boiler-Replacement/slides/SBG_7869.html

On my diagram, this is opposite the boiler, lookup "up". I think this is exactly what you're describing... the two mains drop down to the floor before they connect. You can't really tell in the photo, but there's no connection at the top.

I'll get right on upgrading those vents. That's something I can do for this heating season... the boiler though will have to wait a few more months.

So after all this, I think I'm going to owe quite a few of you guys quite a few beers. Too bad you're too far away to collect..

Best,
-G

Patrick Linhardt, \"Linhardt's Field Guide to Ste

mo venting - mo better

Hi Garret,

Great pics, they do help. Yea, I only see one end of main vent, when we need to see two, one for each end of main.

So go with Steamhead's venting recommendation to vent the end of mains to improve steam circulation and even the heat.

But don't forget about upgrading the most important vent in a vapor two pipe, the main air vent at the end of the dry return. They used to have huge venting capacities, equal to an open 1/2" pipe. But today's vents don't have that kind of capacity, right Gerry? The air from the radiation has to pass through this vent (AIR OUT), and there is plenty of air in those radiators (see Library section for ratings) that has to get out of the way of the steam.

Improving the venting will improve the performance, like putting an Edelbrock manifold on a small block Chevy V8. So you will improve the efficiency of the system.

However, the boiler has to go. That combustion set-up in a converted coal boiler is terribly in-efficient. Get a modern design boiler to see some real results.

Best regards, Pat

Boilerpro_3

I know from experience....

that those Kewanee radiators are some of the heaviest around. Whew!!!

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

Hey Gerry,

> for any reason, and you felt like sending them to

> me i'd test them for you and let you know how

> much air they can pass..i'd send them back of

> course..they do have to be working traps tho.. i

> know the illinois isn't on the venting capacity

> chart..not sure about the webster..which webster

> is it? kind of looks like an 02h.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 360&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Boilerpro_3

Hey Gerry,

I'll try to keep an eye open for those oddball traps, I've got a few systems around here with various Illinois thermostatic and F&T traps. I till haven't gotten your new listing of capacities.... this year has been mostly a hot water year. Last year was mostly steam...you just never know.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

On that return....

You may want to put in the best vent available.... an open pipe routed down to a few inches off the floor(just in case steam gets to it). If all the traps are working and/or orifice plates are in place and a properly set vaporstat is in use, there should be no steam in the return, just condensate water and vented air. You could even use the old trick of tying the outlets of your main vents and the pipe from the return and connect it to the chimney to allow the chimney draft to pull air from the system. If you have still have the old coal fired chimney, they have a very strong draft.

Boilerpro

Patrick Linhardt, \"Linhardt's Field Guide to Ste

open pipe is nice

Hi Boilerpro,

Greetings to you of the Great White North! Yes, an open pipe has plenty of capacity and there really shouldn't be any steam present. But, the other feature of the old vents and new vents is the float, which prevents water from leaving the system (I hate when that happens) if the pressure gets too high on a gravity return system. Now, the vaporstat should keep that under control, while the float acts as a safety. Its a matter of choice, just as long as the capacity is enough.

Best regards, Pat

Patrick Linhardt, \"Linhardt's Field Guide to Ste

you want vents? traps?

Hi Gerry,

We have a large collection of vents and traps from the era of the dead men. I would be honored to provide any that you request. Looking for anything in particular? I'll try to work up an inventory sheet so that you can see, or should I check to see what I have that is not in your very fine e-book?

From the south shore of Ohio, Pat

Boilerpro_3

Just don't use a Gorton or other similiar types

They have no floats.

Boilerpro

Patrick Linhardt, \"Linhardt's Field Guide to Ste

to float or not to float, that is the question

Hi Boilerpro,

I'm thinking of float type main air vents because I'm reading a great book on steam heating from the Webster Company steam guys written in 1922, revised and reprinted in 1924. Hundreds of pages of vital information to the folks back then. Some great insight into what they were concerned about in terms of design.

They used a great big cast iron receiver on the end of the dry return that had a great big float in it that would close off the open vent if the pressure in the boiler got too high for gravity return. I'm sure you have seen them. We have one here at the ol' supply house that was removed from Powell Crosley's mansion built in 1928 or so. Talk amout a hunk of iron. This float type vent has to weigh 100 pounds.

Conversely, some of the other great vapor systems didn't use a float type vent. My favorite, the Brommell Vapor System, released the air from its receiver through an open pipe to the condensing radiator and then to the chimney without a float. The Mouat Vapor System used a series of vertical "cooling/condensing" pipes to directly vent the air from the system, no float.

Both of these operated at extremely low pressures, around 4 ounces. Not much chance of building much pressure there. The Websters could operate with a wide range of pressures, from vapor all the way up to 25 pounds. Now that would require a float.

I guess one could argue this point over a quantity of cold adult beverages. Float or no float, plastic or paper, Ford vs. Chevy, Sox vs Yankees, Maple Leafs vs. Jets, etc.....

Best regards, Pat

GusHerb

yeah

My floors sag towards them.

Steamhead (in transit)

Most Gorton vents

do have floats. The 1965 is the only one I know of that doesn't. Maybe you're thinking of Heat-Timer.... none of their vents have floats.

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The Wire Nut

Caught my eye

Garret,

Glad to see that you are getting a lot of great advice and interaction. As a plug for Dan, I would suggest you "put a brick in The Wall" to help keep this going...

Off the steam issue, what caught my eye was in your initial post you mentioned that your walls were plaster and lath and uninsulated. I had the same situation in my 1841 stone house. In the winter you could literally feel the icy breezes coming through every nook and cranny.

Since so much of energy savings comes from keeping cold air out, I did a lot of research on insulating the house without ripping out the walls. I eventually settled on a product called Icynene. [Note: I have no connection to this company or product!]

It's a water based product and pretty Green. It won't mold or sag (like cellulose) and is not appetizing to critters.

The down side was that they turned my walls in to swiss cheese with 1/2 holes 18" apart in every stud bay. Part of the problem was my bays are very deep, as the stone wall is a "balloon" around the interior structure. (It made it great for re-wiring as you could easily run wires horizontally behind the studs. My snaking skills improved about 100% with that work!) This meant they had to get more foam in, and thus, more holes. I learned how to patch holes quickly and neatly!

They also filled in the attic joists and around the 1st floor joists in the basement where the joists enter the stone.

The improvement has been substantial. I know they didn't get 100% penetration, but you can feel the difference both in the summer and winter. The insulation coupled with a boiler re-pipe (thanks to a lot of help from the kind folks here on The Wall) has cut my fuel usage in half.

We paid about $13K for about a 2000 sq foot house, including most of the interior walls to help in soundproofing. It's a lot of money, but with the price of oil going ever upwards, it will pay for itself in time. To say nothing of saving some oil and air for my heirs!

Best of luck!

Alex

GusHerb

good idea for me too

It sounds like a good idea for me too cuz I have uninsulated plaster lath walls too. And i'm freezing right now!!!!!

Garret

Thanks for the good idea, Alex. I know we have cellulose in the upstairs dormers, but I really don't know what's in the walls. I'm just assuming there'e nothing in there because of the age of the house. One of these days I'll dig into an electric box and confirm...

I've heard great things about the icynene foam too... dang why is it all the cool stuff costs $15k. Maybe I need to start donating blood.

I'll definitely put a few "bricks in the wall" when this project is over... I'm a web systems guy by day, so I know how much hosting and maintenance costs can be for a site this successful.

-Garret