Seeking input from fellow Wallies Part 2 (ME)

Weezbo

povision for the correct expresso coffe to be provided for the radiant installers*~/:) What Gives? :) Isnt it like something generally perceived as Code? other than that,... i see this as a very clear, concise and propitious addendum :)

[Deleted User]

I'm sure I'm missing a million points of light here...

Feel free to add, and comment, and use it to your advantage in making a positive impression on the contractor, engineer or architect of your choice.

Also, double check it for errors in grammar and spelling prior to applying your letter head. I can not be responsible for my own actions under the influence of strong coffee. Right Weezbo? ;-)

Thanks for playing.

ME

BEGIN ATTACHMENT

Contractors Check List as it pertains to Hydronic Radiant Installations

1. Floor Joist Insulation: Be sure and include insulation in your bid package for all framed floors above the slab. We will provide rigid insulation for those areas below the slab, as well as wire mesh for the slab. If the floor is to be a structural steel floor with poured concrete, include a spray on insulation with a minimum R value of R 7. The greater the R value the better heat and noise transfer reduction potentials.
2. Don’t forget to allow for the thickness of the insulation in soil preparation for the basement poured floors. Make sure that the sub soil is as smooth and rock free as possible, and if the highest seasonal water table is within 5 feet of the basement floor, provide a polyethylene vapor barrier prior to the installation of the insulation and radiant floor heating system.
3. Do not allow the concrete installation contractors to use rakes with teeth or othjer sharp objects to move the concrete around. If the cement has to be wheeled in with wheel barrows, make certain that they have plywood banter boards in place to avoid spearing the tubing with their wheel barrows when dumping their loads.
4. In the off chance that they do damage the tubing during the pour, have them box out the damaged tube for future repair and documentation.
5. Ask them to carefully pull the mesh and tube upwards into the wet cement. While it would be ideal for the tubing to be located within the top 2” of the pour, it is equally important at a minimum that all tubing be completely surrounded by concrete. The use of chairs is highly recommended.
6. Make certain that ALL tradesmen working on the home are aware that there are tubes in the floor, and require them to check with a supervisor before sawing, drilling, cutting or attaching anything to the floor. Also make them aware that there are lines transporting heating fluids other than the tubes in the floor that need to be taken into consideration. Look before you drill.
7. Never attempt to use the hydronic radiant floor heating system as a temporary heat source before the homes envelope is properly insulated and the home closed up. It can result in significant damage to the heating system.
8. Make sure that the flooring substrate is as dry as possible prior to installing any finished flooring goods. This is especially important when dealing with cementitious products that had water added to them for application. If hardwood floors are applied to a wet sub floor, the hardwoods will swell, and you will not be happy. If the wood is applied wet, the floor may dry it out unevenly, again causing warping and cupping and again you will not be happy.
9. Make sure that all finished flooring goods are acclimated to the local relative humidity prior to installation. See the above statement as well.
10. Start low and go up slow. Thermostat settings should start out at around 60 degrees F. and should be increased slowly over a long period of time until the comfort threshold is achieved. Radiant floor heating systems are not like any heating systems you’ve ever felt, and discomfort due to over temperature is the most common complaint.
11. Make certain that the system designer is aware of the homeowners (lady of the house) final intent as it pertains to finished floor coverings. Large, thick throw rugs will stifle the output of the radiant floor. They can be compensated for in advance if it is known that they will be applied, but can not always be accommodated after the fact.
12. Make certain that the zoning of the house is conducive to common final floor finishes. You don’t want to have rooms with differing floor coverings being operated from the same thermostat. Some rooms may be exceptionally warm, and some rooms may be uncomfortably cool. Allow the designer to sit down with the homeowners prior to beginning the system design to discuss these issues.
13. Notify your hardwood flooring contractor that there will be tubing in the floor, and that his installation crews need to pay particular attention or suffer the consequences. It is not that hard to install hardwood over the radiant floor heating system if properly laid out. Most problems arise from sub-contractors not paying attention to detail. You should not have to pay a premium price for installing hardwood over the radiant floor heating system.
14. Make sure that the system designer is aware of any changes in construction design that will affect his installation and performance.
15. If it becomes necessary to install tubing in the floors below floor mounted cabinets, make certain that fiber glass insulation is place over the floor prior to setting cabinet bases. This will avoid turning a cabinet base into a science experiment from potatoes and onions blooming sprouts in the dark.
16. If carpeting is the finish of choice, make certain that the homeowner has been coached as to the need for thin dense pad and carpets to avoid stifling the output of the radiant floor.
17. Use bottom double soul plates that are wider than the base sole plate by at least 3 inches to give the carpeting people a good place to anchor their carpet strips when using a cementitious material for floor mass filler. (gypcrete or light weight concrete)
18. If the floor will be poured with a light weight concrete, a bond breaker sheet must be applied prior to installing the tubing in order to allow the concrete to float. Otherwise, the concrete may bond to the plywood sub floor and will cause a lot of cracking of the finished surface.
19. If gypcrete is used, it must be bonded to the plywood sub floor with an approved water based adhesive that is typically installed by the gypcrete applicator.
20. If using gypcrete, think like water, because when the product is applied, it is 90% water, and it will find places to leak into the floor below that you wouldn’t expect it to. It also seeks its own level, just like water. Provide damming where appropriate.
21. Never allow ANY fuel fired appliance to be operated when there is a substantial amount of dust in suspension (sheet rock or wood). This will cause the fired appliance to foul the combustion process and will generate dangerous amounts of carbon monoxide.

END ATACHMENT

Enjoy, and pay it forward.

ME

Scott Gregg

Sugestion

Add the word "reflective" to your insulation for joist bay applications.

GMcD

Pressurize the tubing

Needs a section as follows: Radiant tubing used in pre-fabricated subfloor panels such as Warmboard, Quik Track, Raupanel, etc, as well as concrete floors, must be pressurized with air in freeezing climates, or water in non-freezing climates to a minimum pressure of 100 psig to act as a leak detection method during the flooring work. Keep the tubing pressurized during the construction and check the pressure gauges at each manifold during the course of construction to insure that the tubing is still pressurized and no leaks or damage has been incurred.

[Deleted User]

Scott..

You can add it to yours if you feel it necessary. As a company, we do not practice the use of stapleup or suspended tube installations, therefore we save the aluminum for critical needs, like beer can and beer keg construction.:-)

Once the aluminum gets dust on it, it is virtually use less as a "reflector".

Thanks for the input.

ME

Scott Gregg

I'm with you on part...

I don't think we are in for an aluminum shortage and I understand the lack of need for reflective anything in slab installations. However, I don't buy the "dust" argument. And would like to make a point for those who do joist bay jobs.

In a radiant "joist bay" installation three will be little to no dust formed. Dust usually encountered on old building areas like attics, has usually come from fiberglass anyway. Dust is something that is present in moving air and must be "produced" by some source. Using a reflective foam based product in a still environment negates any production of dusts.

Examples: Ever been in a cave? No dust. Place a big cooler in storage for a long time. The outside will have dust, but the inside won’t.

Now for the benefit. Try this little test the first time you can get your hand on a sample of reflective foil insulation. Place you hand on top of a section of it. You will feel the warmth from your skin radiate back to you. If you can roll up a small piece and stick your hand or arm into the roll without touching it, this becomes a really cool Parlor trick! Your skin will radiate warmth and feel almost hot. But the air temperature will not feel much different. (And you won’t get itchy!) Try it.

Fiberglass without a reflective barrier absorbs radiant heat and slows the transfer of thermal energy down according to its R-Value and K-Factor. Reflective Foam based insulation reflects the radiant heat very efficiently and slows thermal energy transfers according to its R-valve and K-factor.

One more thing. Foam is a much better insulator than fiberglass. Would you place your beer in a fiberglass, container? It goes in a cooler with insulation made of foam. Even the small soft coolers are foam based.

As costs of foam based products come down, and their benefits are realized, the use of fiberglass insulation will drop off.

hr

Scott D

You said

"In a radiant "joist bay" installation three will be little to no dust formed. Dust usually encountered on old building areas like attics, has usually come from fiberglass anyway. Dust is something that is present in moving air and must be "produced" by some source. Using a reflective foam based product in a still environment negates any production of dusts"

Actually I have been back to a number of staple up EPDM installations that used foil backed fiberglass as the reflective mechanism.

One particular job was actually a test and photo op for a manufacture here in Missouri. The original owner is an insulation contractor here in Missouri.

Although I was not the installing contractor I was called in to split the master bathroom portion from the master bedroom and had to remove some insulation above the garage to adjust loops.

I was surprised to see a substancial build up of dust on top of that foil faced batt. For the most part it looked to be sheetrock dust that had filtered through the cracks of the subfloor. Some fine sawdust under the end seams of the subfloor.

I suppose the convective air currents moved and spread the dust along the entire length of the bay.

Under the bathroom it looked like a combination of white sheet rock dust and a grit from sawing and installing the tile backerboard.

Furthermore a large percentage of the foil had red lettering stamped on it, listings, installation info and manufactures data, further obscuring the foil reflective property.

I do have digital pics of this job somewhere.

I'm not sure exactly how much dust reduces the foil reflective-ness and to what degree, but I am willing to bet dusted foil is a very common occurance.

hot rod

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[Deleted User]

Thanks Geoff...

added to the mix.

ME

[Deleted User]

Thanks Geoff...

added to the mix.

ME

Kevin O. Pulver

I got the proof HR

I just posted a photo on a new thread called, "Reflective dust study" After less than 5 years, I pulled the insulation down, and it had enough dust to easily write legible words on it with your finger. And is is under NEW subfloor. I assumed also that the dust had to come from convective air currents dragging dusty air through the joist bay. That clinched it for me. Kevin