Just curious....

Long Beach Ed

... steam systems from scratch. All in formerly hot-air heated homes for people who specifically wanted steam.

We've also split up a few steam heated two family homes to two-boiler/two-system houses.

Some people want this. Some have the money and want hot, iron. Not many. Mostly people like me and Mad Dog.

Long Beach Ed

JoeV

It seems you guys do a lot of steam...

boiler replacements. How often do you get to install an entire system from scratch from boiler to radiators?

Jim Burke comfort zone

Steam installs

Check out triple crown on find a pro then go to his web site his house is from scratch start to finish .
Madd dog is truly one of the best .

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Guy_6

steam

As a rule, I think that it is safe to say that the bulk of steam work is replacement boilers, and not entire new systems. Although steam is a great way to heat a building, the economics of installing an entire system are prohibitive. I am always in awe of the old steam piping considering the engineering (sans computer) that was involved, and the labor---All of those threads were hand cut.

Joe Brix

I can't imagine

any building architect today designing a floor with big cast iron rads unless someone was designing a retro look. I'm sure there's a liability issue today of installing a heating device in a room that could burn you without warning lables like the fast food coffee cups. Rads would have to be covered, losing the radiant effectiveness. Can you even build a building today with a heating system rated at only 80%? All of the air vent maintenance would be frowned upon also.

Steam heat is probably only looked at in factories where steam is already in use for some manufacturing, heating, or baking process. Even then, I'm sure it's often used in a steam fan coil for hot air distribution.

JoeV

The...



Reason I ask is, I spent last week visiting family and friends around NYC. Those with forced air systems wore sweatshirts or sweaters around the house. And others with steam heat wore shirts/blouses. They all complain about their heating bills. Seems to me that efficiency is made up but comfort is real.

I was also in a new home in Montreal that had an in floor radiant heat system. I thought thought it was excellant but the structural walls were made of styrofoam blocks. Great insulation.

It seems to me that you can't always retrofit an old house with in floor radiant as inexpensively as you can with a steam system. And, if you want comfort, you'd go with steam.

I was wondering if marketing has failed here.

Joe Brix

I dont see how

a steam retrofit could be cheaper, unless you're saying the house had steam at one point and the piping was still available. How could you put in hand cut and threaded steel piping in a building unless you were down to studs? Would you have all the pitch available to pipe it correctly. You think it is less labor intensive then fishing some flexible PEX tubing for a hot water system.

Of course a great deal of efficency comes from the building insulation. Sure a steam rad would probably keep us warmer if outdoors rather then a section of radiant flooring. The very high temps help overcome poor insulation and drafts. But thats covering up the builing flaws.

Radiant flooring designs are complex and the high heat loss of some older structures or the use of thick flooring or carpeting makes radiant heat a poor performer in those cases. But don't forget baseboard and panel rads. It's all about getting enough radiation source in the structure to match the heat loss.

It's all about thermodynamics and control: It takes a great deal of energy to turn water into steam and it only happens at 212° for a single zone. Hot water can have it's temp varied to the heat loss and pumped to specific areas that need the BTU's very efficently.

Radiant heat is not a magic fuel saver. It must be designed correctly and teamed with a tight, well insulated building envelope. The same goes for hot air systems. Most of the complaints you describe are about poor design.

JoeV

I was just thinking

...it could be done in single story homes with a basement/crawlspace. Or even on new home construction projects or a complete renovation where the walls were gutted.

No need to hand cut and tread pipe any more. It seems that in the right circumstances it could be priced only modestly higher than forced air and provide the HO greater comfort.

As I write this, I decided I'm probably wrong. Convenience usually trumps quality for the same reason more people prefer the ease of gas logs over the crackling warmth of a real log fire. No smoke, ash, or having to feed the fire. I prefer the latter myself.

Joe Brix

Not saying its never done

But how else would you pipe even a ranch with basement?
I don't know of any plastic piping approved for steam and copper steam risers are considered hack work around here.
It's a lost art form. We have a few artists like Mad Dog, but I don't think anyone new in this business is gonna innvest in a dying art form. Hydronic heating is having hard enough time as an optinon in new construction (in this country anyway, in non high end custom homes). Steam just doesn't make economic or fuel efficency sense anymore. Ed's examples are still conversions for the most part, not new construction. If the state of MA now requires 85% efficency, they just outlawed steam systems for new construction. I wonder if a conversion would be allowed if a permit had to be pulled.

JoeV

Wow.

Thanks for the insight. I wasn't thinking of cheaper pipe. I didn't know some states regulate efficiencies either. All I know that is there are a lot of half million dollar + homes going up and Mercedes and Jags aplenty.

I thought these folks would pay extra for the superior comfort which is what got me to asking the original question. Thanks again.

clammy

millionaires

I used to work in a gated commuity in new york state very exclusive since the late 1800 .These people not all but i would say 75 % where brokester they could not even pay there service and oil bills no less spring for a new boiler or burner (quite air )so i hate to say it most i've come in contact think every bodies out to take there money and they seem to go cheap go hot air and then complain cause the installation company won,t call back or don't speak english ( chinese no english )It would totally amaze me first on what they paid and second on what they gotfor what they paid garabe just my thoughts peace and good luck clammy

TGO_54

I've done

many replacemants and revamps of steam heating systems. I've also done one from scratch.

The home was a small weekend house that was being renovated, but the owners wanted the steam heat re-installed. They saved the radiators - everthing else was long gone by the time I got there. We did the design and installation of the whole system, and the customer couldn't believe how quiet the system was when we started it up.

They took a great deal of pleasure in showing the house and system to their neighbors - all of whom had been told steam heat is no good and were stuck with baseboard and burnt air.

I had the most fun of all - designing and installing a steam system from scratch was some thing I always wanted to do. It gave me even greater respect for the Dead Men.

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Bob Bona_4

yeah but

those people will not be visiting the basement for the weekly blow down/water level check, let alone any other kind of steam maintenance. It just will not happen.

Believe it or not, most people think cast iron rad's are ugly, and take up space. They are hard to keep clean, hard to paint behind, and interfere with decorating.

Sorry to say, steam is a dying method of heating the American home, excepting my die hard buddies like Mad Dog who just HAS to be different!:)

Ron Schroeder

L:ook and feel of steam

Panel Radiators

http://www.buderus.net/Default.aspx?tabid=36&cid=14&ctitle=multi-purpose

Boilerpro_3

Retrofits

Most of the steam systems I work on were retrofits into homes without central heating or had hot air before upgrading. Some walls and floors saw minor patching or repair. One thing we fail to think about is the fact that just becasue we see all those huge pipes and big radiators in older systems doesn't mean they are needed for new. If you take a typical new home with reasonable insulation, your heat load for the whole house in under 50,000 btu/hr...A 2 inch main carries nearly double this amount so a couple of 1 1/2 inch mains would do......like used on many early steam systems. Once you get to the rooms, the loads are only about 3500 btu/hr for a typical room, so you only need a radiator with 15 edr... that's about 3 sections measuring 9 inches deep, 38 inches tall and 7.5 inches long.... not much space. A wall panel would take even less. If you were running one pipe steam , I bet a single 3/4 inch supply would do, 1 inch for a bigger rad or for extra safety. With two pipe steam, those sizes will drop further, more like a single 1 1/4 inch main or maybe two with only 1/2 branches. We are not looking at extreme amounts of labor. The size of most piping is no bigger than the gas lines we install regularly. With a power threader and the inherent swing offsets in steam piping, installing a new system can't be that hard. I'm looking forward to the chance.

Boilerpro

Dave Stroman

If it cast iron radiators you want, do a hot water system. The radiators can be feed with small PEX tubing, all hidden with the joist spaces. You can use a high efficiency boiler with outdoor reset and achieve the same or better comfort that a steam system can produce. We have done this many times with great results. It is funny how some people just love the big radiators and how some people think they are worth nothing more than boat anchors.
Here is a group of radiators I am preparing for a job I am doing.

Dave in Denver

Steamhead (in transit)

I've done steam from scratch too

don't have any pics now, it was in my former boss's daughter's house. This was the system that made PM a few years ago. If memory serves the heat-loss was already done, and I did the radiator and pipe sizings and layout, vent sizings and some of the piping and boiler installation work. The system worked properly on the first start-up. I don't remember having to do much tweaking.

The house was weatherized to the hilt and I can tell you Boilerpro is right- the rads looked positively Lilliputian when they were installed, compared to what we usually see. But they worked fine and more importantly didn't overheat the rooms. Yes, the piping was more labor-intensive but this was offset by the fact that there was only one pipe to each rad. We reached the second floor with exposed risers, like we find in many old houses.

The only steam/hot water comparisons I've seen are between poorly-operating steam systems with ancient boilers and properly-operating hot-water systems with modern boilers. I bet if you compared a well-operating steam system with a well-operating hot-water system having similar boilers and radiation the difference in efficiency wouldn't be much. So far, no one with the bucks to do such a comparison has had the guts to. One day when I get rich..... meantime my next pet project will be Orifice Vapor. Only four moving parts in the whole system. I don't think a hot-water system can match that.

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JoeV

As I walk

from my modest neighborhood through the wealthy neighborhood nearby I have been monitoring some construction work.

Two projects stand out.

One, an existing mansion of about 15,000 sq ft doubled in size. They heat and cool the place with forced air. They have an HVAC farm on the side of the house. It was unsightly and noisy so they built a wall around it. The air has to loose its punch by the time it gets to the last room.

The second project is even more obscene. Thirty thousand sq ft goint to sixty. HUGE. In my mind, the place would heat faster and better with steam, like a tenement building, but I think they're sticking with warm air too. I don't think efficiency is a concern with these folks.

That's why I ask if marketing failed or is non existant.

Steamhead (in transit)

There isn't much marketing out there

from what I can tell. But it's more than that- if you take a kid straight out of vo-tech with zits all over his face and show him a steam system, he goes "uhhhh, what's that?". They concentrate on scorched-air and A/C in these places. If they mention hydronics at all it's baseboard. There may be some exceptions but this is the usual pattern.

So now you have a company full of such people and they take the "uhhhh, what's that?" to the next level, which is to rip it out cause they don't understand it. And when a customer mentions anything hydronic, "uhhhhh, what's that" turns into "uhhhh, you don't want it, stay with forced air". Comfort and efficiency are totally ignored.

This phenomenon has resulted in opportunities for my partner and I, so I suppose I shouldn't complain too loudly. But what's going to happen when these inefficient scorched-air systems gobble up what's left of our affordable energy?

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JoeV

You're fortunate

...to be able to take advantage of the opportunity. Too bad the boiler manufacturers don't promote their systems as well as Carrier or Trane.

I am convinced comfort will trump efficiency. My wife always sneaks behind me and crank our air furnace to 73 just to stay comfortable. Efficiency goes out the window regardless of what it says on the data plate. When we had steam, 73 would have caused us to open windows.

As far as the inconvenience of weekly blow downs, anyone could hook up a Honeywell mod motor with linkage to a LWCO. Put the motor on a timer or use a remote located switch in the house.

As far as training is concerned, you (someone) has to create the market.

Steamhead (in transit)

\"When we had steam\".....

you can have it again! Use the ductwork for A/C only. Watch your heating comfort increase and bills drop. You can't lose!

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Big Ed

Not Feasable

I have not seen any new residental steam install in my life time. Maybe if they come out with 2" pex

Big Ed

Not Feasable

I have not seen any new residental steam install in my life time. Maybe if they come out with 2" pex

JoeV

That is the plan...

That is exactly what we're going to do before the next heating season! The current HVAC will be back up and A/C.

We had an old boiler, missing traps, main vents stuck open yet our heating bill did not go down much with the air system. It is still in the $2-300.00/month range. At the time, we thought we were going to see a savings and be responsible citizens.

Neighbors think we're insane.

Ron Schroeder

Ed

I was looking at it as an alternative to steam not for steam

Bob Bona_4

can you imagine

> ...to be able to take advantage of the

> opportunity. Too bad the boiler manufacturers

> don't promote their systems as well as Carrier or

> Trane.

>

> I am convinced comfort will trump

> efficiency. My wife always sneaks behind me and

> crank our air furnace to 73 just to stay

> comfortable. Efficiency goes out the window

> regardless of what it says on the data plate.

> When we had steam, 73 would have caused us to

> open windows.

>

> As far as the inconvenience of

> weekly blow downs, anyone could hook up a

> Honeywell mod motor with linkage to a LWCO. Put

> the motor on a timer or use a remote located

> switch in the house.

>

> As far as training is

> concerned, you (someone) has to create the

> market.



As far as the inconvenience of weekly blow downs, anyone could hook up a Honeywell mod motor with linkage to a LWCO. Put the motor on a timer or use a remote located switch in the house.

Bob Bona_4

can you imagine..

As far as the inconvenience of weekly blow downs, anyone could hook up a Honeywell mod motor with linkage to a LWCO. Put the motor on a timer or use a remote located switch in the house.

I don't think so, Joe.

One needs to physically go to the basement to blow down, inspect and/or add water to the system. Even ensure the LWC is working and shutting the burner off. A steam system is not a "hands off" affair.

Can you imagine what holy hell would come about if you rigged a LWC to a timer (read field modified from mfr. spec) and something malfunctioned in that chain of apparatus?

Steamhead (in transit)

That's why I like probes

we all know how often a float-type LWCO usually gets attention.

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JoeV

I understand the concern...

...that,presently, steam is not a hands off affair. But to make steam appealing and be able to market it,it must be convenient -and safe.

"Rigging" has such a negative connotation. I prefer "designed".

I used to work on industrial gas & oil burners and their pipe trains. Old (1940's) pipe trains and facilities with low cash had safety shutoff and blocking valves that had to be manually opened when a pilot has been established. Now, it is all automatic-safety has been designed into the automation and even controlled via an inexpensive PLC. Industry demanded convenience and safety.

I believe steam can be a hands off affair with only routine annual service required.

thfurnitureguy_4

probe

Does this type of LWCO reduce/ remove the need for blow down. Like in a vacation home?