Constant pump bad good or bad?

Jim_66

Hello All!

I posted awhile back about problems with a sloppy Buderus install.

I wont rehash it, but the issue has been if the bypass was installed correctly and if will be effective.

The consensus of expert comments from this board is that it was a "cheap changeout" but I have no easy way out at this point and all I can do is make the best of whats installed.

Unfortunately, because of buderus' "open-market" approach Ive reached a deadend with the installer. I have no leverage through Buderus and the installer charges (lots) for "corrections".

So here's my question: The installer adamantly says their bypass is OK, even though I am fairly certain it is condensing at times.

But by way of trying to get our heat more even and maximize efficiency he re-wired the circ to run constantly. He says this would help fix condensation too.

Is this true? Considering that everybody on the list was unimpressed by the picture of the piping I posted, I doubt everything the installer does now (yes, he's licensed).

So, What is the advantage of a constantly running circ?

The setup:
Buderus G124X-25, pilot. Gravity convert. Cast iron old fashioned rads. Single zone, bang bang system. Grundfos 42-15F circulator, on return, pumping towards boiler.

Bypass on *flow* side of pump (the whole problem I guess, but Buderus apparently has no specific requirement--so I have no leverage over the installer at this point.)

Thank you all for being my reality check. I know Buderus makes an excellent boiler, but I sure wish I'd bought a Burnham or slant-fin because I think at least they make their installers prove their mettle.

Im really on my own in this deal...

Paul Pollets

et al

No matter what boiler you choose, the installer is the key. Constant circulation will not prevent boiler condensation. It's easy to check for condensation...If the boiler return does not reach a temperature of 130 degrees within 4-5 min of a cold start or demand for heat, the flue gases will condense and boiler damage will result. There should be a thermometer(s) or gauge on the system. A full port bypass using a globe valve is often required, when system water content is large, per the manufacturer's instructions. That your contractor is charging for corrections begs the question..."how come?". Proper piping practices always need to be followed. There are no shortcuts that prevent condensation. I'd be using the Logamatic control with a 4 way mixing station with bypass and outdoor reset to reduce fuel bills and make the appliance work more efficiently. Gravity conversions will have a great effect on the cold water return....Dan's books tell all about it.

I suspect all boiler manufacturers will be disclaiming all warranties due to condensation issues when the boiler was installed without thermal return protection.

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Ted_9

heating

"I know Buderus makes an excellent boiler, but I sure wish I'd bought a Burnham or slant-fin because I think at least they make their installers prove their mettle."

Why because those companies require some kind of certification????

Why dont you refresh our memories and post some pics.

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Jim_66

pic of piping/buderus

thanks-I really dont know how else to get independent info besides this list...

Here's a pic as a refresher. Most on the list labeled it a dud bypass because its not on the suction side of the pump, so innefective.

Thats why I was wondering if constant circ would help alleviate the problem.

By saying I wished I'd chosen Burnham or SlantFin I only meant that it seems their relationship with installers is a bit more of a partnership (w/training and requirements), so installers HAVE to get the bypass right to meet warranty standards or they cost the boiler company too much money.

You also have to understand that the installers dismiss me as ignorant homeowner...so thats where I could really use the help of the boiler manufacturer to "lean" on them a bit.

I do know Buderus is a fine product--but not one of my bids included any mention of piping and I now see the best boiler is pointless without good piping.

regards
-jim

Paul Pollets

I remember this

the pump should be move to the supply, after an air eliminator (Spirovent) and the expansion tank. I'd

The existing bypass is reduced to 3/4"....and uses a ball valves. the bypass must be full size (1" in this case) and have a globe valve, not a ball valve. The bypass should be 12" long, ideally. A thermometer installed on the boiler return gives quick indication of temperatures.

The boiler can also be piped using primary/secondary method with a Tekmar control. this will also prevent thermal shock.

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Ted_9

Buderus

We go to Buderus training often. I concider Buderus my partner.

They also offer excellent tech support.

Just like many other companies.

just had to say that.

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Ted_9

logamatic

If the Buderus had the R2107 control, you wouldnt need the boiler bypass.

Paul is also correct.

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Jim_66

Not knocking Buderus tech support

Ted G. Said:
>We go to Buderus training often. I concider Buderus my >partner. They also offer excellent tech support.

Oh, totaly agree and my point is not a knock against Buderus, theyve been quite patient with me (though seem to not want to get between installer and me)--the key is that you WANT to be a partner, and Buderus is there for you. My installer just wants a no fuss supplier I think, and that is also possible w/Buderus.But my warranty relationship for the next 25 years will be with Buderus!

Paul P (and Ted G) said:

> the pump should be move to the supply, after an air >eliminator (Spirovent) and the expansion tank. (snip)

I learned this long ago--which is what Ive been arguing about with them all along. But having someone else fix it would add a big money to a job that shouldve been done right in the first place, and thats the crux of my problem.

Convincing the installer that they either 1)intentionally or 2) accidentally dont know what they are doing.

Understand this is a company founded in the 30's, licensed installers, etc. And everything I say to them is dismissed as idiot homeowner talking.

THATS where I could really use a factory-authorized arrangement like other boiler companies have. Hearing they've done wrong from the boiler maker would make all the difference.

By the by, the constant circ "solution" is just a waste of electricty-I gather? No advantage here?

[Deleted User]

I'd suggest...

and ESBE Thermic vale on the return. It too will require a bypass, but it's the least expensive means of providing boiler protection.

Them old gravity systems are TOUGH on atmospheric boilers. I had a Teledyne Laars atmospheric one time with TWO bypasses, and the thing STILL sweated like a pig on morning pick up. COuldn't keep it from happening...

Now a Thermic valve, theres a metering device that works :-)

ME