Runtal Rad Problem...PGP

Weezbo

Paul Pollets

Noisy rad

I've a problem radiator, a vertical Runtal WPR installed recently that makes "noise" when the TRV is set over "3". The radiator is on the 2nd fl, and the highest height of the 4 others on the same floor. The radiator feeds from the attic above, which has an auto air vent on the return. Vitodens boiler set @ 20PSI to get the water up to the attic. Zone has its own pump off the LLH. I've bled the rad, it's not an air problem. I've adjusted the PBD valve, no change. The owner doesn't like the noise, and either would I. Any ideas???

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kevin coppinger_4

did you change...

the trv? sounds like a flow issue to me...kpc

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Paul Pollets

Why?

I've never seen a defective TRV valve body. And I've installed well over 500+ TRV's. There's a Danfoss side angle TRV on this rad. I would agree that there's flow noise, but the reason?

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kevin coppinger_4

is'nt there...

a first time for everything? kpc

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Paul Pollets

ain't

that the truth!!

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J.C.A._3

Is it possible....

That the feed and return pipes got switched on the run up and over?

The only time I've ever heard any noise from any type of TRV is when they are trying to flow "against the proper direction" of flow.(Ask me how I know this!) Chris

jerry scharf_3

question

Paul,

Are you saying this radiator has it's own circ? Where is the pump located? What does the noise sound like?

Maybe you're over-pumping it and the noise is related to the combined flow and pressure passing something thin (like the control face of the valve or a bend in a pipe.)

jerry

Paul Pollets

Circ pump

The upper floor pump(3-speed Grundfos) has 4 radiators and (2) Oventrop Unibox RFH zones. Noise was noted at med and high speed. If the TRV was reversed, a banging or thumping sound is usually observed. In this case, a trickling water sound can be heard at the top of the radiator, when the TRV is raised above "3".

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S Ebels

We had the same thing

On a Vasco Carre' vertical unit. One of the rounded ones made to sit in a corner. Very sharp looking BTW!

I don't know how the rad you have is vented but it was an air problem with the one we had. At higher flow rates, (wide open TRV) you could hear a tinkling/pinging sound from the rad. Much higher pitch than you would normally associate with an air problem. We must have bled that thing a dozen times to no avail. Finally installed an auto air vent on it and told the owner to let it rip for a couple days. We then isolated the rad at the manifold connection, removed the auto vent and opened it back up. No more noise. The air vent on this particular rad is located at the top of one of the columns and the header connecting all of them together is an inch or so lower than the vent. I have a hunch that each of the columns had to work it's way full before we could get rid of the noise/air.

[Deleted User]

Try...

injecting about an ounce of liquid dish detergent (Dawn) into the system and see what haps.

ME

Paul Pollets

I like soap...

If this works Mark....We'll try it on Monday

see you in Vegas for the Wirsbo HCT ??

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Chuck Mac

runtal noise

The only time I have had noise from a TRV is when the supply and return are reversed


Chuck Mac

[Deleted User]

Yup...

I'm saving my pennies and nickels.

As you may remeber with my own system, which has a microbubble resorber on it, the ONLY way I was able to capture and expel a rogue bubble was with Dawn.

The results were almost instantaneous.

Let us know how it goes.

ME

S Ebels

OK

I'm stumped. What's the soap do?

[Deleted User]

Surfactants

breaks up surface tension of bubbles, allowing them to be easily caught and expelled.

ME

[Deleted User]

thump thump thump thump thump thump thump thump thump thump.....

Been there, heard that, was extremely emberassed. Now have employees using red and blue tape to mark supply and return mains and branches to make sure it doesn't happen again...

$#!t happens in the field, especially if its uncontrolled...

ME

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Sounds like a velocity problem. Move a lot of water through a wide-open TRV and the noise is something like a toilet running in the far distance. If you're unlucky and a resonance is being established in the piping, the noise could get ugly.

Is the TRV being kept at a setting above 3? I know the scale is somewhat relative, but in the systems in which I've used TRVs, such a high setting is nearly stifling. If it's taking such a high setting to maintain somewhat normal room temp, I'd suggest either an undersized panel and/or an undersized TRV body. If space temp is being maintained at a temp as high as that setting would suggest, did you account for this when sizing the panel and TRV?

You can test for this problem by increasing the boiler temp by 10°F or so. If this solves or greatly reduces the problem, double check your sizing both of the panel(s) and the TRV bodies.

There's also the possibility that you simply have too much pumping ability. Does that panel (or any other in that zone) have a slightly different and still noticeable noise as the TRV approaches setpoint and begins throttling? If so, I'd suggest that you have too much flow ability (too much circulator power).

Paul Pollets

Soap Works!!!

ME, you're "the Bomb"!!

Injecting 1oz of Dawn with a force pump reduced noise 95%. I still managed to purge air for 10 min while turning the TRV from 1 to 5 with the radiator vent open. Vertical WPRads that are attic-fed are a pain in the Butsky.

Thanks for the super tip!! "

Ya don't know what ya don't know...."

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Glad for you Paul that it was "just" an air problem and not flow or sizing!

Thanks Mark! Will certainly remember if I ever find myself working on an overhead supplied system!

Paul Pollets

WPR's

The Runtal UF baseboard panels were not a problem...just the vertical WPRad.

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S Ebels

Hey Mark

What effect does the soap have in a system charged with say, 30% glycol?

[Deleted User]

Good Deal!!!

Have to give credit where credit due. That trick was told to me by Len Rozek back in the hay days of solar. It was a method we used for getting the air out of closed loop solar systems. It was taught to him by a now dead man named Weldon Kite senoir.

Now it's yours. Pay it forward.

ME

[Deleted User]

Works great Steve...

as I stated below, we first used it on closed loop glycolized solar heating systems. Got the bubbles out post haste.

ME