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two loop system one loop failure

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geo_23
geo_23 Member Posts: 18
No - this system has two independent loops.

There is a common line from the boiler then two branches (loops) with independent valves.

Nothing is in series.

The two loops then join at their far ends into one line to the pump thence to the boiler.

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  • geo_23
    geo_23 Member Posts: 18
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    two loop system one loop failure

    Posted previously (same author, same subject, included photos) but more info.
    Could not find old postings by searching (error message.)
    Several heating contractors each with 30+ years hydronic heating background have bombed out on this.
    HELP
    Two loops with baseboard heating units, White-Rodgers water valves on each, one return line with pump into boiler.
    All baseboard loops are more than one foot below the level of the bottom of the boiler (there is a hose bib at the boiler for draining the boiler), and an air purger valve at the level of the top of the boiler.

    Both valves and thermostats function normally, pump functioning normally.

    Loop 1 operates normally, loop 2 does not.

    A. Valve 1 on, valve 2 off - loop 1 baseboards very hot, loop 2 baseboards cold.
    B. Valve 1 off, valve 2 on - all baseboards cold.
    C. Valve 1 on, valve 2 on - loop 1 baseboards hot, loop 1 part nearer to boiler barley warm - rest of loop 2 baseboards cold .
    D. Both valves on, loop 1 heats, loop 2 baseboards warm - not hot.

    Suggestions are to 'purge' the air out of the system - I have let system run in choices (A. through D.) above and there is no change in the actions of th system (apparently the air does not purge through the air purger valve.
    All the plumbers state DO NOT FLUSH THE SYSTEM as this will introduce more minerals and air into he system.
    Since all the baseboards are below the hose bib on the boiler, how can I get the blockage (air or crud) out of loop 2?

    Any suggestions?
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
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    i just came away from the same sort of set up...

    if the zone valves are in series then what you have is, one zone is Slave to the other. in other words, if one of the valves closes.....then you have a "Zoned syestem" if the other valve closes First, ...You got Nuttin :)
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
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    test

    did it ever work properly ? sounds like either air or bad zone valve. sometimes you must cut into piping & install additional valves for necessary purging. purge # 2 zone with domestic water pressure or air to insure line has no obstrutions . could line be partially frozen ? not many more options
  • Jim Franklin
    Jim Franklin Member Posts: 170
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    > Posted previously (same author, same subject,

    > included photos) but more info. Could not find

    > old postings by searching (error

    > message.) Several heating contractors each with

    > 30+ years hydronic heating background have bombed

    > out on this. HELP Two loops with baseboard

    > heating units, White-Rodgers water valves on

    > each, one return line with pump into boiler. All

    > baseboard loops are more than one foot below the

    > level of the bottom of the boiler (there is a

    > hose bib at the boiler for draining the boiler),

    > and an air purger valve at the level of the top

    > of the boiler.

    >

    > Both valves and thermostats

    > function normally, pump functioning

    > normally.

    >

    > Loop 1 operates normally, loop 2

    > does not.

    >

    > A. Valve 1 on, valve 2 off - loop 1

    > baseboards very hot, loop 2 baseboards cold. B.

    > Valve 1 off, valve 2 on - all baseboards

    > cold. C. Valve 1 on, valve 2 on - loop 1

    > baseboards hot, loop 1 part nearer to boiler

    > barley warm - rest of loop 2 baseboards cold

    > . D. Both valves on, loop 1 heats, loop 2

    > baseboards warm - not hot.

    >

    > Suggestions are to

    > 'purge' the air out of the system - I have let

    > system run in choices (A. through D.) above and

    > there is no change in the actions of th system

    > (apparently the air does not purge through the

    > air purger valve. All the plumbers state DO NOT

    > FLUSH THE SYSTEM as this will introduce more

    > minerals and air into he system. Since all the

    > baseboards are below the hose bib on the boiler,

    > how can I get the blockage (air or crud) out of

    > loop 2?

    >

    > Any suggestions?



    I'm just a homeowner but my ex had a similar problem. One zone valve wasn't opening enough to trip the end switch, so that zone only got heat when another zone turned on the pump while it was trying. Maybe your loop 2 valve is stuck?

    jim
  • Jim Franklin
    Jim Franklin Member Posts: 170
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    I'm just a homeowner but my ex had a similar problem. One zone valve wasn't opening enough to trip the end switch, so that zone only got heat when another zone turned on the pump while it was trying. Maybe your loop 2 valve is stuck?

    jim
  • geo_23
    geo_23 Member Posts: 18
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    two loop system one loop failure

    Yes it did work up until the following. (Not ever frozen.)
    A month ago the 'stuff' at the boiler became very noisy (grinding noise) so I had the pump replaced - turned out that the noise was the water valve which had frozen in the 't' fitting.
    Put the old pump back and replaced the water valve (completely - new 't'.)
    Additional problem was that the plumber replaced the pump with the wrong size (too small) and that one was able to push the water through one of the loops but only heated the first couple of baseboards of the second loop.
    After putting the old (correct size) pump back the system continued to heat only one loop and the other loop acted as described in my original post.
    How do I convince the plumbers that the system MUST be flushed - they are adamant the systems are NEVER flushed.
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
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    routine adjustments

    simple solution. you need a mechanic that is qualified to work on your simple two zone system. up until this time ,you have not had one. i hope you did not pay these guys any money. in my world you don't get paid until problem you called for service is rectified. like i said before , there are not a whole lot of components to this system. it is bare bones. call a lic. plumber
  • geo_23
    geo_23 Member Posts: 18
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    routine adjustments

    You are partially correct.
    Remember all these guys have had 30+ years installing and repairing these baseboard hydronic systems (all are licensed with the C-4 (hydronic) endorsement.)
    I myself, moved out of a house (after 35 years) that had a six loop radiant hot water heating system in the floor. I flushed this system each year (lots of crud from each loop) and no failures during that time. [One thermostat to turn the pump on and off - globe valves to temper the individual loops.
    Worked great.
    May have to dump these experts and have an ordinary plumber install some valves and hose bibs so I can flush the system.
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
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    bleed & purge

    what i have seen many times ,is that the proper bleeding & purge valves were never provided on initial installation and when a serviceman comes assumes he can get it going with what is available. even though he knows it is not set up right , because it was an existing system that was working at one time. he is not prepared to cut into lines to add pertinent valves etc. & also thinks maybe client would think he is trying to do un-necessary work and take advantage of an emergency no heat situation. a lot of piping jobs may work somewhat but are very far from being correct. hope this helps.
  • geo_23
    geo_23 Member Posts: 18
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    Open circuit hydronic system

    I need some plumbing information about a hydronic heating system which has a solar panel plus a sun-spool (h-g spool) drain down valve.

    What exactly is the flow pattern through the drain down valve when it is in the operating position and when it is in the drain down position.

    Which of the five ports (to panel, from panel, to storage tank, from storage tank, and drain down outlet) are connected together in each position?

    In addition, since the valve is about two feet below the top of the storage tank, does the drain down valve drain the tank when in the drain down position?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,144
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    Is it this type of WR

    zone valve? They were famous for stripping the motor shaft and the spool would not turn or turn now and then.

    Is this a correct boiler piping drawing?

    If so add a Webstone purge valve below the zone valves. Or use a ball valve, a tee, and a boiler drain to build one.

    Turn off the power and rotate each zone valve, one at a time to purge one loop at a time.

    I'd remove the operators from both ZVs to assure they do turn and operate. I'd also remove the circ from the volute to check impeller condition.

    I find it hard to believe the local pros cannot or will not propose this simple fix. So they tell you it cannot be fixed because the water can never be drained?

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • geo_23
    geo_23 Member Posts: 18
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    Open circuit hydronic system

    Sorry about this post - wrong thread.

    See separate thread by same name.

    --partial quote---
    > I need some plumbing information about a hydronic

    > heating system which has a solar panel plus a

    > sun-spool (h-g spool) drain down valve.

    >

    > What

    > exactly is the flow pattern through the drain

    > down valve when it is in the operating position

    > and when it is in the drain down

    > position.

    >

    > Which of the five ports (to panel,

    > from panel, to storage tank, from storage tank,

    > and drain down outlet) are connected together in

    > each position?

    >

    > In addition, since the valve is

    > about two feet below the top of the storage tank,

    > does the drain down valve drain the tank when in

    > the drain down position?



    > I need some plumbing information about a hydronic

    > heating system which has a solar panel plus a

    > sun-spool (h-g spool) drain down valve.

    >

    > What

    > exactly is the flow pattern through the drain

    > down valve when it is in the operating position

    > and when it is in the drain down

    > position.

    >

    > Which of the five ports (to panel,

    > from panel, to storage tank, from storage tank,

    > and drain down outlet) are connected together in

    > each position?

    >

    > In addition, since the valve is

    > about two feet below the top of the storage tank,

    > does the drain down valve drain the tank when in

    > the drain down position?



  • geo_23
    geo_23 Member Posts: 18
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    gnhv83k02@sneakemail.com

    Yep, that is the system. Have replaced the ZVs a couple of times (frozen in the pipe fitting - I think from high iron content in water.)

    Mine is slightly different - the pump is on the common return to the tank (pumping into the tank) so the flow is into the ZVs instead of out of them. There is a 'purger-trol' casting at the tank before the ZVs.

    (I don't know what the 'two branch' line at the top of the photo is.)

    There is also an additional line that 'short circuits' between the line to the zone valves and tank and the common inlet to the pump.

    I have put a shutoff between the pump and the tank, and two hose bibs - one at the inlet to the zone valves (where you suggest the 'purge valve' and one between the pump and the tank.

    Because of the 'short circuit' I am still unable to actually purge the system (one at a time or together.)
    I am planning on adding hose bibs right after each zone valve so I can drain each system.

    Yes the 'experts' say never drain the system because that introduces fresh air into the system that has to be removed (big deal - I had hot water pipes in the concrete floor of my previous house and drained the system at least once a year for the 35 years we lived there with no problems.)

    Unfortunately, I cannot remove the ZVs as the hot water has frozen the rubber 'o' ring into the fitting - pulling the operator only separates the the motor shaft from the operating valve in the fitting - thus destroying the valve.
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