W-M Re-pipe

The Boiler Dr.

Choppers have a whole new meanig here this AM!!! Minus 33F at this moment with wind chill minus 44/45F and supposed to get worse. Weekend high -27 plus wind Can you say ch-ch-ch-ch -aw-aw-aw--pers! Even the gas would be too thick to fall out of the tank! Well, off to the "coal" mine.

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The Wire Nut

Homage to Ron Jr., Steamhead and all the other mentors here...

My PA neighbor Bill's son works for a quality remodeling contractor. The owner, Ray, recently did a total renovation on his 70 year old house. He had a local P&H guy replace the steamer with a W-M EG/PEG 40. The end result that the radiators were more fountains than heaters, and the banging could be heard about a mile away...

Ray mentioned this to Billy, who said his Dad's neighbor is some sort of steam nut, and that he would have him (that's me!) call...

My inspection yielded a treasure trove of knucklehead lost art. The attached "before" photos say it all...

One nice bit was the end of the main was pitched up from the last take-off T. This was because someone added a radiator, and replaced the elbow at the end of the main with a T, feeding the dry return from the bull, and the radiator from the end of the T. That take off ran about 4' to an el and the pressure of that connection pulled the last 10' or so of the main up.

I did an EDR and came up with about 231 sq. ft. with a 30% pu. The boiler is rated at 325. Even though he plans to add another radiator in the future, he's got BTU to spare...

Ray said he wanted 100%, gave me the OK to charge whatever I needed at our local supply houses, and left me alone...

The installation manual (why don't knuckleheads read?) showed the minimum requirements to be a 2" riser. After removing the existing "header", I lifted the cover to find not one but two 3" tappings. Throwing rationality to the breeze, I sketched out a nice 3" drop header, and headed off to the local supply houses...

While we have 3 nice P&H suppliers within 5 miles of each other, 3" black fittings are tough to find. Reducing nipples, eccentric couplings and the like are special orders at best... But between the two places I frequent I was able to get what I needed. Man, are 3" unions heavy!

Given the state of the vents, I set up an NCI CO detector, which, fortunately, has registered nothing to date...

Day 1 was for removing the old near boiler piping and assembling and installing the risers and header. Ray helped removing some of the old piping (he has muscles, and I don't)... By that evening I ran out of fittings, and called it a night. The weather was warm, and Ray has a "ventless" gas fireplace, that produces enough heat (and CO, I bet) to melt steel, so we left the boiler off.

Day 2 I finished off the header, made the connection to the main steam main and built the loop and connected the equalizer piping. Unfortunately, the water heater intruded about 2 inches into the space I needed for the equalizer elbow. I had to dump the water in the heater, cut the pipes and shove it back to get the fitting on. (Ray's going to move it to a better location so it can be properly vented).

Bill Sr. came by later that afternoon to help with the preparation of the pipes and opening of old fittings. We were able to fire it up that night, and from a cold fill to steam at the end of the main was about 15 minutes...

Radiators still spit a bit and there was some banging but it was already about 90% better...

Day 3 was the "end of main" work. We cut the last take-off from the end of the T and removed the Ts, and installed a new T with the bull pitched 45 deg to provide for the take-off. From there we added another T to provide for main vents, then added 15" to a new elbow and then back to the dry return. Removing the old pipes took about an hour. We used a cut-off wheel to slice the elbow at the dry return and to cut a slot in the end of the T so that we could free it from the nipple.

We also used the cut-off wheel to cut the take off from the end of the last T. Once the main was free of this pipe, we were able to pull it down to proper pitch and we drained about 2 quarts of water that was sitting in the low part of the main...

We figured it would take an hour or two to put in the new pipes, so we knocked off for dinner, hit H-D for some last minute parts and went back to work. That last 2 hours took 5. In my haste to pick up parts at the supply house, just before closing, I grabbed nipples from the 2.5" bin and not the 2" bin. A couple of other 1.5 and 1.25 fittings were not to found either. Haste makes waste... We were able to pull it together though using what we had.

The other major hangup was the pipe threader. We needed to cut two threads, 1" and 1.25". The supply house lent me an older Ridged 65R-TC. A mechanical masterpiece, but man is it heavy! The darn thing was in need of a bit of work, and the #3 tooth wouldn't stay in the die head. Made it interesting to say the least...

We fired up the boiler at about 1am, and within 15 minutes you could literally follow the steam as it speed down the mains.

Venting is done with 2 Gorton #1 vents (the largest the supply house had) at the end of the dry main, and 2 more at the end of the main.

There's still a bunch left to do; clean up the kitchen drip, replace the other horizontal take off, strap up and insulate the pipes, add the auto-feed, re-wire, etc.

But the worst is over...

Today I received this email from Ray:

"I have to tell you, this thing is so quiet. I cannot even tell the boiler goes through a heating cycle. Sometimes the only way I can tell is when i hear the thermostat click off."

Makes it all worth while...

I'll post some photos of the complete job ASAP...

Alex

Ken_40

A thing of beauty!

You obviously learned a great deal since Wetstock I

Loved your ability to "think like steam" and solve the puddles-galour.

Two things I would have done differently: Used 3" (full-size} risers, since the W/M offers them; and, c.i. fitings rather than black maleable.

Nice job kid.

Paul Fredricks_3

Great story and great job. I can't believe it didn't work the way it was, I mean they painted the pipes! Doesn't that make it all better?

The Wire Nut

A little knowledge...

Hey Ken,

I've always said that if you stop learning, you die. And, being surrounded by such a wealth of knowledge and experience, I'd have been a dead fool not to take advantage of it....

I went to a drop header because of height issues. I could barely stand straight and Bill kept whacking into joists and light bulbs... And I think drop headers are a lot sexier...

As for the fittings, I was lucky just to find 3" unions and the occasionally reducing el in malleable. No one stocks cast fittings up in my neck of the woods...

Best to Jaye!

The Wire Nut

Particle Physics...

Paul,

Painting the pipes is the sign of a true artiste! I figured they painted them for one of the following reasons:

1) Black keeps the heat within the pipes and then you don't need to insulate.

2) Black absorbs any heat from the basement and keeps the riser preheated so you get steam quicker.

3) Hey, it's black pipe so it should be painted black...

Being new to this discipline, I'm not qualified to question my predecessor!

Hope to see you at the next BUNY, and, bring your ax!

Alex...

The Boiler Dr.

ATTA BOY ALEX

Keep up that great work, eat your spinach and soon you shall be rewarded with as many arm muscles as head muscles.
Great looking job. EH any interest in slip-sliding up North to help me wrestle some 4 & 6 inch?

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Ken_40

The drop header was an excellent idea!

The BM fittings a supply house problem, not yours. Ya does what ya has ta do.

Once you get into over 2" fittings, c.i. is generally cheaper. But if they don't stock it, price is irrelevant.

Superb work in any case.

Say Hi to Layla. Jaye says how doo, too.

Ray_17

I have to vouch for alex, he is doing a fine job. I really cannot believe how quit the system is. All my radiators are working great and he feels there is more work to be done. (Fine by me) It is amazing that he doesn't do this for a living and he knows more about it than anyone locally that does "P&H" on a daily basis.
Alex, my family thanks you for all your hard work!!

Jeff Lawrence_25

Tired but Happy?

But not too tired to have clean hands in the picture!

I, much like Ken, was wondering about the drop header. Then the 'tired but happy' picture downloaded and I saw the true height of the basement and I saw the light.

Alex, great work! Maybe this can be your new career.

All our best, from the freezing South (low of 26° last night).

Jeff

Steamhead (in transit)

I've always said

Alex should get into the heating business. He could really clean up in that area.

I'm wondering when Alex will find an old (or new) building that needs heat, and join the Steam System Installers Club........

Nice work!

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The Wire Nut

Clean hands are a sign of

Hi Jeff!

Clean hands are because I wore gloves for most of the operations. Rectoseal is a pain to get off the skin, and it was cold in that basement!

Howdy to the family....

Alex

The Wire Nut

Thanks Ray!!! I wish my consulting clients were so vocal in their pleasure.... Maybe that's why I want to change professions!

See you Sunday...

Alex

The Wire Nut

Thanks Steamhead!

Installing from scratch, now that would be a real kick!!!

Thanks for all the help and encouragement, now and in the past....

Alex

The Wire Nut

I forgot to mention...

I skimmed that sucker for about 6 hours. I used the 1 1/4 skim tapping, nipple to a T then to an el with a hose cock (I know, not good, but I'll cap it when done). Watching the outflow through the bull of the T was quite instructive. It's amazing how much crap there is in a boiler...

After the particulate matter decreased, you could still see the oil and slime for hours.... I'll do it one more time after the next work and see how long it takes to clear...

Why so many installers don't skim, I don't know. No chemicals can get rid of what came out of that boiler....

Stupid question, if you don't want to take the time to read the manual, you aren't going to take the time to skim...

Alex

The Wire Nut

Ken,

Can you imagine the faces in the supply house if I asked for CI! They think I'm nuts as it is! Requesting an eccentric coupling, reducing el, or a Vaporstat is often meet with a quiet shake of the head... And these guys are fairly well stocked with other fittings and pieces....

I have a friend who works at one of the houses, and he's pretty sharp, but very little in ci. They are also supposed to carry USA fittings, but half the bins are filled with foreign... I guess it's just getting harder and harder to find the stuff... And folks to pay for it....

Ken_40

The problem is...

Not the supply house you use; it is the one you have yet to find!

If you go where the plumbers go, you're in the wrong supply house. Go where the boiler guys go, where steam heat is not an anomoly, but rather a staple. Find a place that sells boilers with over 200,000 BTU as a commonly used commodity. Pt. Jervis has tons of larger steam systems.

Places that use 3, 4, 6" pipe will not be plumbing supply houses, they will be industrial or commercial wholesalers. You could stop by at least 5 supply houses I could mention who are on the route between NYC and your area of PA and pick-up anything you may need. Routes 80, 78, 280, 287, are lined with places where a request for a 4 X 3 CI tee would respond, "How many you want"?

If you need names and locations, just say the word. 3, 4, 1nd 6" nipps are also common to these supply places. A great resource might be to speak to a contractor who works nearby on schools, churches, etc. Most will have 3"+ piping and fittings and need repairs. The source they use will be your ticket to finding a supply house that deals in larger pipes and fittigs. BTW, there is nothing wrong with doing black maleable fittings, other than they'll leak sooner, cost more and look "flimsy" when compared to CI.

Pray you neve have to repair a steam pipe with BM fittings. No cracking out possible.

The Wire Nut

Surfeit of pipe...

I would expect that there are some better suppliers as you get closer to Scranton and Wilkes-Barre. With all the coal in are area, I would imagine that there is still a lot of bigger steam systems. Getting to Scranton and W-B are an hour plus away so the trips would have to be well thought out. A process I'm still learning.

I do like that the supply houses will let me play in their stock areas. I can lay out the fittings to check dimensions and make things work with the stock they have.

There is a fair amount of residential steam around us, but mostly knuckleheads to maintain them, as we've seen...

I'd welcome a list of places to go, especially closer to the NJ-PA border. We're pretty far North in PA, and are actually West of Monticello NY, rather than NJ.

I agree CI looks like "real" pipe, and certainly feels more substantial. So far, I haven't been able to master the cracking method. Mostly I just make lots of noise and jar my joints. We ended up using a cut-off wheel to make a slice in one of the Ts to separate it from the nipple. When we put the wrench back on it, rather than turning off the nipple, as we had expected, the whole nipple turned. We couldn't budge either, so somehow the effects of the wheel affected the other end of the nipple.

The other issue is that at some point I'm going to have to develop some muscles (nice trick at 50!) 'cause 3" fittings are heavy!

Thanks again, Ken...
Alex

The Boiler Dr.

Muscles

Excercise program for "steaming Arnie" Star by using an 8ft length of 1" sch80 black pipethreaded at both ends, install floor flanges in tasteful colours, add assortment of 2,3 and larger fittings as body tone improves. Result: Muscles, natural stock of new or nearly new cast fitting collection.
Side benefits; Excellent reason for "sight seeing" excursions to local and distant suppliers for new "weights". When tiring of new "weight training machine" find potential financial rewarding outlet for said "weight system" in happy steam owners basement so one can afford to invest in new larger "transient gym module" and repeat proces as necessary.
Just my humble attempt to help you achieve your desired goal with logical reason.

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Todd_22

Pipe fittings

Nice repipe. I have had good luck getting larger screw fittings at Dempsey Pipe in Montgomery, NY. About 1/2 hr from Monticello in Orange County. They seem to have mostly American made fittings also. Plus you can cruise by the OC Choppers store on the way.