Looking for a heating pro who thinks like a lawyer...

bob young

sounds like you need a certified letter from an expert witness along with a site visit. i love those jobs.

McKern

...or maybe a lawyer who understands steam heat.

The short version of my question: can a closed valve attached to a cold and dry radiator be the source of water dripping through the ceiling downstairs? If so, would opening that valve stop the leak, make the leak worse, or is it impossible to tell without more info?

The long version (I recognize that this is not a typical forum question and I apologize if it�s totally inappropriate):

Background: this is a 1920-era condo building (6 units, 3 floors, + garden unit) with a single pipe steam heating system. Usually, when water is dripping from a ceiling there is an obvious leak in the upstairs radiator and the owner of the leaking radiator is liable for the damage. (According to our condo bylaws, the part of the heating system that is within a unit�i.e., radiators and valves�are the property of the unit owner.) If the leak occurs in the supply/return line, the association is responsible for the damage. However, for the 2nd time in 2 years we are dealing with the issue of assigning liability for water damage to the ceiling in one unit that occurred when the radiator nearest the leak was off.

In the first case, in an effort to find the leak the plumbing/heating tech opened the radiator valve, expecting the leak to get worse. It did not. The issue of liability became moot when the owners of the unit with the damaged ceiling waived their right to have the ceiling repaired, deciding to incorporate the repair into an unrelated remodeling project they were planning. Details are vague regarding the possible sources of that leak�apparently the repair service did nothing except open that valve.

The second case involves my unit. My downstairs neighbor called on a Sunday afternoon to report water dripping from her ceiling, assuming, naturally, that it was coming from my radiator. I explained that the radiator was off�having been turned off during a service call 2 years ago to address a previous leak. (I left it off�the living room is overheated when its on.) I checked the radiator and it was, indeed, cold and there was no sign of water under or near the radiator. I reflexively tested the valve�i.e., loosening and retightening�to verify that it was closed. I reported this to my neighbor and said that I would call our repair service the next day.

Shortly before the repair appointment the following Tuesday, I discovered that the radiator was now warm�apparently the result of my twisting the valve on Sunday. Further, the floor immediately under the nut that connects the radiator to the steam pipe was damp. (NB: not anywhere near enough water to explain the downstairs leak.) I explained the whole story to the repairman, i.e., the cold radiator/dry floor condition on Sunday and, regardless, the downstairs ceiling was dripping water at a rate that couldn�t be explained by this minor leak, etc., but he shrugged this off and wrote up a service ticket reflecting the fact that he observed a leak and tightened a nut.

One final point to add to the mystery�my neighbor reported that whatever I had done on Sunday appeared to have fixed the leak.

In the process of trying to determine how to identify the source of a no-longer-leaking leak, I�ve learned enough about steam heat to question the wisdom of parsing ownership of the components among individual unit owners. I asked the board to reconsider this section of the bylaws because the system functions--and malfunctions--as a unit. As an example, I mentioned that even though everyone agrees on the need to keep heating costs under control, the annual inspection never includes verifying that individual radiators are properly sloped, valves are fully opened or closed, and that the vents are clear and functioning. Further, when unit owners treat pipes and radiators as private property, we are all vulnerable. Last year the owner of the garden unit had pipes in her unit relocated. When system fired up last fall, there was horrible water-hammer in the pipes, which went on for weeks because (1) no one understood how damaging this could be and (2) it took the contractor 2 or 3 visits to identify and fix the problem.

On the advice of our lawyer, who said that our bylaws are typical, the board reject this idea. At this point, it seems that it�s up to me to prove that the leak did NOT originate in my unit. Honestly, I am not trying to dodge responsibility�I simply don�t want to pay for damage for which I am not responsible, especially considering that a certain amount of neglect seems to be built into the ownership arrangements of the heating system.

So, was my cold, dry radiator the likely culprit?

(Great website, BTW. I found the bulk of the reading material for my self-directed crash course in steam heat at heatinghelp.com�and I am the proud �owner� of a Brick. I�ll be shopping next month for my dad�s 75th birthday. He started working in the warehouse of a plumbing-heating wholesale business in 1948, rose through the ranks to become the branch manager, left that company to start his own wholesale business�which he owned for about 35 years, renewed his license and took on an apprentice when he �retired�, and still goes on occasion service calls. As you might imagine, he�s been helping me make sense of what I�ve been reading.)

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

single-pipe steam?

Closing the valves or attempting to regulate output in any radiator by throttling the valve is a huge no-no!

One-pipe steam systems need that valve to be in the full open position and then regulate the output via an adjustable air vent.

Closing or partially closing a valve will cause condensate to build up within the radiator. This can either cause problems with flooding the boiler when system pressure drops during an off-cycle or fill the rad until either the packing gland at the valve stem leaks (not uncommon with old vapor-valves) or spew water from the air vent.

Closed valve = problem created by owner in that condo = guilty as charged!

Mad Dog_2

I got in to a few law schools..................................

but intelligently decided against going. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave_4

radiator turned off

If the valve was completely closed, I don't see what the problem is.

McKern

We could certainly use an expert opinion or two, but judging by the sorry quality of the advice and service provided by at least 2 of the 3 companies that we’ve dealt with in the past 5 years, experts are a rare breed around here.

The most recent suggestion regarding next steps is to attempt to restart the leak—perhaps by closing the valve, returning it to the position it was in when the ceiling was dripping.

I don't know enough about valves to know if this is a reasonable idea--e.g., under what conditions would a leak in a closed valve stop when the valve is opened? Will the attempt to recreate the leak simply complicate the situation, making it increasingly difficult to identify the original problem.

As I said, we are hurting for experts.

McKern

Just to clarify--the valve was completely closed when the leak was reported. This radiator was turned off 2 years ago by a repairman I had called to deal with a former leak in my neighbors ceiling. Since the living room is overheated when the radiator is open, I never turned it back on.

However, it seems that I inadvertently opened the valve the day my neighbor reported the leak. From my original post:

"I checked the radiator and it was, indeed, cold and there was no sign of water under or near the radiator. I reflexively tested the valve, i.e., loosening and retightening, to verify that it was closed."

Inexplicably, the leak stopped after the valve was opened.

McKern

ORIGINAL POST--EASIER-TO-READ VERSION

NOTE: This is the original post sans (I hope) the assorted nonsensical characters imported from Word.

Or maybe a lawyer who understands steam heat.

The short version of my question: can a closed valve attached to a cold and dry radiator be the source of a leak? If so, would opening that valve stop the leak, make the leak worse, or is it impossible to tell without more info?

The long version (I recognize that this is not a typical forum question and I apologize if it’s totally inappropriate):

Background: this is a 1920-era condo building (6 units, 3 floors, + garden unit) with a single pipe steam heating system. Usually, when water is dripping from a ceiling there is an obvious leak in the upstairs radiator and the owner of the leaking radiator is liable for the damage. (According to our condo bylaws, the part of the heating system that is within a unit—i.e., radiators and valves—are the property of the unit owner.) If the leak occurs in the supply/return line, the association is responsible for the damage. However, for the 2nd time in 2 years we are dealing with the issue of assigning liability for water damage to the ceiling in one unit that occurred when the radiator nearest the leak was off.

In the first case, in an effort to find the leak the plumbing/heating tech opened the radiator valve, expecting the leak to get worse. It did not. The issue of liability became moot when the owners of the unit with the damaged ceiling waived their right to have the ceiling repaired, deciding to incorporate the repair into an unrelated remodeling project they were planning. Details are vague regarding the possible sources of that leak—apparently the repair service did nothing except open that valve.

The second case involves my unit. My downstairs neighbor called on a Sunday afternoon to report water dripping from her ceiling, assuming, naturally, that it was coming from my radiator. I explained that the radiator was off—having been turned off during a service call 2 years ago to address a previous leak. (I left it off—the living room is overheated when its on.) I checked the radiator and it was, indeed, cold and there was no sign of water under or near the radiator. I reflexively tested the valve—i.e., loosening and retightening—to verify that it was closed. I reported this to my neighbor and said that I would call our repair service the next day.

Shortly before the repair appointment the following Tuesday, I discovered that the radiator was now warm—apparently the result of my twisting the valve on Sunday. Further, the floor immediately under the nut that connects the radiator to the steam pipe was damp. (NB: not anywhere near enough water to explain the downstairs leak.) I explained the whole story to the repairman, i.e., the cold radiator/dry floor condition on Sunday and, regardless, the downstairs ceiling was dripping water at a rate that couldn’t be explained by this minor leak, etc., but he shrugged this off and wrote up a service ticket reflecting the fact that he observed a leak and tightened a nut.

One final point to add to the mystery—my neighbor reported that whatever I had done on Sunday appeared to have fixed the leak.

In the process of trying to determine how to identify the source of a no-longer-leaking leak, I’ve learned enough about steam heat to question the wisdom of parsing ownership of the components among individual unit owners. I asked the board to reconsider this section of the bylaws because the system functions--and malfunctions--as a unit. As an example, I mentioned that even though everyone agrees on the need to keep heating costs under control, the annual inspection never includes verifying that individual radiators are properly sloped, valves are fully opened or closed, and that the vents are clear and functioning. Further, when unit owners treat pipes and radiators as private property, we are all vulnerable. Last year the owner of the garden unit had pipes in her unit relocated. When system fired up last fall, there was horrible water-hammer in the pipes, which went on for weeks because (1) no one understood how damaging this could be and (2) it took the contractor 2 or 3 visits to identify and fix the problem.

On the advice of our lawyer, who said that our bylaws are typical, the board reject this idea. At this point, it seems that it’s up to me to prove that the leak did NOT originate in my unit. Honestly, I am not trying to dodge responsibility—I simply don’t want to pay for damage for which I am not responsible, especially considering that a certain amount of neglect seems to be built into the ownership arrangements of the heating system.

So, was my cold, dry radiator the likely culprit?

(Great website. I found the bulk of the reading material for my self-directed crash course in steam heat right here and I am the proud “owner” of a Brick. I’ll be shopping next month for my dad’s 75th birthday. He started working in the warehouse of a plumbing-heating wholesale business in 1948, rose through the ranks to become the branch manager, left that company to start his own wholesale business—which he owned for about 35 years, renewed his license and took on an apprentice when he “retired”, and still goes on occasional service calls. As you might imagine, he’s been helping me make sense of what I’ve been reading.)

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

vapor valve

Anon,

A 1920 vapor valve is highly unlikely to be "leak-tight". The seat disc is typically in poor condition and does not grant a 100% seal. As a result, a wee bit of steam can work its way through to the rad side where it quickly condenses. Steam pressure will prevent the condensate from returning. Condensate begins filling the radiator. Remember: 1-PSI of steam will support a 2.31' column of water. I've witnessed more than a few 1-pipe valves leaking from condensate-filled radiators.

At other times, I've serviced one-pipe systems that had flooding issues and found the tenants were "adjusting" the rad valves to regulate their heat, which caused the radiators to begin filling with condensate. When the boiler would shut down and the system pressure fall, the previously trapped condensate would flood the boiler. I've traced that and opened valves only to hear the rushing condensate leaving the rad.

And, I've seen lots of these rads squirting water from their vents when the valves are supposedly closed.

If the vapor valve is an angle-valve and leaks at its packing gland around the stem, the water often follows the piping - right down through the floor.

The rad vlv disc is often a sight to behold once a vlv is dismantled. Kinda looks like an old mecadam road in dire need of repair and hard as a brick too. That's if it's still attached to the stem! It's not unusual to find the disc is pretty much gone.

Had more than a few problem rads in one pipe systems turn out to be the result of the disc assembly falling off of the stem and several where the disc deteriorated to a point where it fell and covered the seat.

Someone should be advising this condo assn about one-pipe rads and the manner in which they should be treated for regulating heat.

Mad Dog_2

We'll, you have come to the home of experts, steam, hydronic and

otherwise. Have you tried FAP at the top to find a local expert near you? Mad Dog

Steamhead (in transit)

Where

are you located? Have you tried the Find a Professional page of this site?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

McKern

Thank you all for your helpful answers.

To Dave Yates/GrandPAH: I appreciate your description of a deteriorated valve. Nothing in the pictures/diagrams of intact valves led me to consider that level of deterioration.

Re finding a local pro: someone from the company that services the boiler responded to my initial call. Frankly, his indifference to the news that the conditions he observed were different from the conditions at the time of the leak put me off. At this point, I’m trying to decide if I should hire someone else or just pay for the ceiling repair and be done with the whole mess. (BTW, I’m located in Oak Park, IL, which is immediately adjacent to Chicago’s west boundary. Only 2 companies turn up in the FAP search: one is 80+ miles away, the other is a 20 mile drive from here--which probably doesn’t seem like much in non-urban areas, but I imagine there are a few dozen plumbing/heating companies between here and there.)

Dave Yates' remark that someone should be advising the condo assn about one-pipe systems is right on target. Our current arrangement leaves us open to a world of problems—at the very least, it virtually guarantees that the system operates at a less than optimal level.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

Wish I was in the area

I hear opportunity knocking! The potential for a new customer (the Condo Assn) and by virtue of the owners, lots more potential customers who would no doubt appreciate a wee bit of friendly advice. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

I appreciate your candor. In retrospect, I felt I'd been a bit too blunt and might have offended you. I'd advise paying the bill for a number of reasons, not the least of which is maintaining good neighbor relationships. I'd also suggest getting copies of Dan's "Lost Art of Steam Heating" that would make for an excellent investment. You'd spend more fighting this with lawyers than you'll ever spend on the repair. If you're interested in a second opinion regarding the leak, it would be much less expensive to hire a steam tech than a lawyer, which is topsy-turvey (IMHO), but that's reality.

Meanwhile, the Condo Assn needs to get the word out: do not close those valves! If you don't want any heat from a given rad, turn the vent upside-down. Probably not a great idea either as the threads might break off, creating a larger issue. Adjust the vent to its lowest setting if there's more heat than wanted. They'd be wise to hire a steam guru to visit each rad, open its valve, tighten the packing gland, check for pitch, & check the air vent.

Ken_40

At the rates I charge

as an expert witness, I'll fly to China.

Law was my minor.

If I can help, drop me a line.

McKern

My dad (age 75 & semi/mostly-retired) has been in the plumbing/heating business since 1948 and my brother is a lawyer. There's a good chance that you'd be a better fit at family gatherings than most of the blood relatives.

My question for you is about condo bylaws--specifically, are service calls to condos regarding steam heat systems typically covered by the unit owner or by the condo association?

According to our condo bylaws, the part of the heating system that is within a unit—i.e., radiators and valves—are the property of the unit owner. I suggested that the condo board reconsider this arrangement (for reasons listed near the end of my original post). The association lawyer advised against changing the bylaws, saying that ours are typical.

With all due respect to lawyers everywhere, bylaws are written by lawyers who may--or, more likely, may not--know the first thing about steam heat. I would like to find an example of bylaws that treat the components of a steam heating system as a unit (common element) rather than parsing ownership to unit owners as the system snakes its way through the building.

Any thoughts about this?

scott w.

bylaws

I would think New York City would be a good place to start. Lots of old buildings with boilers. Now you need to find someone with a condo or coop with steam heat.

Really sounds like you need to educate your board and its attorney. Can you bring in a steam heat expert and get a special meeting to discuss this issue?

I suspect your current bylaws regarding the heating plant will lead to a disaster and some resident will sue the board.

D107

ny cooperative council may have template

for proprietary lease. By laws are usually self-governance rules. I was formerly a coop president. I recall that the entire heating system was the coop's property not the shareholder's, for the very reasons this thread goes into. We had Dan's steam book, engineer's advice and a decent plumbing/heating co. We balanced the system and educated the residents, so that they generally wouldn't try to adjust the equipment. The shutoff valves were all 70 yrs old and many had to be replaced. Had to be done carefully since the new valves were sometimes not the same height as the older ones and pitch became an issue. TRVs would allow tenants to turn down the heat, but you might not need them if the system is balanced correctly. If you can have photos taken of your system, you could get some preliminary free advice at the Wall. Then communicate by email/photos with a steam pro on a paid consulting basis; you'll save yourself alot of grief.

In general most proprietary leases, bylaws and house rules should be redone at some point. The council I mentioned had a template done some years back, some of which would apply to condos as well. The original drafters were working for the landlord and so the documents reflected his interests, not the longterm issues of coop or condo.

David

Ken_40

It is typical

to have only the "common to all" elements of any mechanical system be the responsibility of the association, while those elements that are within or accessible by each individual's "lease-space" - be the responsibility of the lessee/condo-owner.

E.g., the fact that a blown trap in apartment 7 will deny apartment 8 any heat is interesting, but moot with regard to the master contract of the association.

A well crafted letter needs to be drawn to explain the inter-action of this phenom and the board "educated" as to these kinds of nuances in shared mechanicals.

Unfortunately, boards will frequesntly create an erroneous solution, suggesting the two involved tenants split the cost of repairs; which is totally incorrect as well as unjust.

D107

council of new york cooperatives and

condominiums --http://www.cnyc.com -- has a monthly newsletter and a template for a revised 'proprietary lease' or whatever the condominium equivalent is called. Most coops or condos should have their documents re-done at a certain point. The originals were drafted by the landlord's attorneys who were looking out for his interests. In addition, much has been learned in the 25 years since the big conversion craze. And with email now it is much easier to contact and educate the tenants. The cnyc template is a good starting point for a document revision; your own homework will lead to more specific items tailored to your own condo, and a good real estate lawyer will help you the rest of the way.

CNYC sponsors ongoing seminars, and an annual housing conference, featuring seminars and exhibits of manufacturers and contractors for condos and coops which is an education in itself.

In an old building many of the radiator shutoff valves are shot and have to be replaced; Dan's books and a visit from a steam pro can help you balance the system so that under or overheating complaints come up only rarely. The pro can help you evaluate your system and bring it up to spec. (Clean out the returns, ensure proper pressure, venting, etc.)

McKern

I was not the least bit offended by your answer. At the heart of my long-winded post was the question: could my cold, dry radiator be the source of the leak?--which you answered.

I’ve thrown in the towel regarding ceiling liability. Originally, I thought that the fact that my radiator was cold from end to end and that there was no evidence of water on my floor under or near my radiator indicated that the leak was not in the valve or my radiator. When my neighbor reported that the leak stopped after I inadvertently opened the valve, I assumed that this virtually ruled out the valve—(looking at the diagrams of radiator valves, I couldn’t imagine a situation where opening an already leaking valve would stop the leak.)

I now understand that with a leaking valve, steam/water leak through the stem of the fitting and can follow the pipe through the floor—which would explain the “no water under/near the radiator.” I have reluctantly conceded that I may have overlooked the warmth radiating from the leak (despite the fact that I was on my hands and knees, specifically looking for signs of heat). A couple of days ago a plumber offered an explanation for my last point, i.e., he suggested that the leak may have been plugged by the swelling of the packing material when the valve was opened. I asked if this was closer to “theoretically possible” or to “very probable,” but I haven’t received a response—not that it would change anything regarding the ceiling repair.

I’m taking your advice and I will not be closing off that (or any other) radiator valve to control overheating. I’m also passing on the notes I’ve gathered regarding single pipe steam heat and a list of recommendations regarding what we should be doing to maintain the system. I’ve already suggested that the board get a copy of “Lost Art…”. I’m ordering a copy for my dad, which I’ll pass around at the next meeting. Perhaps when they will move on this suggestion after they’ve seen the book.