Near Boiler Piping's effect on balance?

Jeff_53

I'm curious, did the 1929 "no-toil" boiler show surging in the sight glass before the descaler was added?

Jeff_53

Can near the bolier piping have an effect on the balance of a steam system? The radiators at the ends of both mains on my one pipe system do not receive heat unless the boiler runs for longer periods of time.

I've included a pic. of my boilier's near boiler piping. The boiler is 65 years old and still runs quiet (though very ineffeciently). Though I'm entertaining bids now for a new boiler, I'm trying to educate myself as well as I can.

Thanks,

Jeff

Anthony Menafro

Pics

Got more pics from different angles? Can't really see much from this location. Anthony

Jeff_53

Here's another picture showing the piping near the boiler.

Weezbo

I replaced one of those for a guy...

not more than 20 years ago *~/:) i didnt chop it out though instead i left it in place and put a pinner boiler in another room and spun in some base board and a toe kick and a unit heater. he was into giving it to me buh i had to refrain from the opportunity .

thfurnitureguy_4

Main vents!

This is a classic venting symptom. Have you checked to see if your main vents are present or operative? The main vents alow the big main pipes to fill with steam fast, so the whole system can heat at the same time. With out them the end radiators never purge air and never get steam. The stat satisfys before the air gets out. Check the main vents! You'r looking at the wrong end of the horse.

t. tekushan

My old Mantra

I am going to risk beating a deceased horse, but I am showing my biases borne out of living in a hard water town (cleveland. the one in ohio).

CRUD.

Old boilers ain't that efficient, its true, but often descaling them makes them tolerable. For many people the new boiler won't pay dividends large enough in the short term to justify the cost of replacing a functioning boiler. Another arguement for replacement is that an old boiler can fail any minute now. But those heavy old beasts can last an annoyingly long time if properly maintained. Descaling the boiler actually reduces risk of boiler cracking. Boiler scale very effectively insulates the heat of the iron from the boiler water, allowing the cast iron to run too hot.

Case in point: An audiophile friend bought a house with the original Bryant "NoToil" boiler from 1929. Its a two pipe system that is properly vented. But GADS it took forever (like 22 minutes) to close the end of mains. Nevermind the eternity it took to actually detect heat from radiators! (Its got end of mains, return vents on short dry returns and then finally a wet return. Interesting.) Upon boiler shut-down, the boiler made popping and percolating sounds for several minutes.

Carefully pouring the Nu-Calgon descaler in a convenient access point, the boiler began to boil. Without any heat. Yup. This boiler had never been cleaned and with periodic fresh water make up over 76 years the poor thing needed cleaning. After appropriate monitoring, then flushing, and more flushing, (use the litmus paper they give you to confirm that the stuff is neutralized), It was time to restart. Results: The boiler came to a boil faster; end of main vents closed in 6 minutes; substantial heating of radiators in 15 minutes. Compare to above, and you can see that the savings will be tremendous this year. For these people, this savings will be a relative luxury.

The only trouble caused was that the lower water jacket area on the sides of this boiler, having small drain spigots with bad washers, began to leak as the crud sealing them was removed. I replaced the washers and all is well. No other problems have been encountered.

The balance problems were not venting in this case but the fact that the boiler no longer produced the quantity of steam the system was originally balanced around. The cleaning restored the system balance.

t. tekushan

sight glass level

There was no surging. There wasn't even a bounce. It just sat there, even though I confirmed that the sight glass and lines were clean.

jerry scharf_3

Cleveland

Isn't that where the river catches on fire (I know, only twice.) I grew up in Pittsburgh, which I believe does qualify as the pot calling the kettle black (literally.)

I can remember the rivalry for the football teams (I also remember when the Steelers went 1-13.)

jerry

t. tekushan

Cleveland

"And Moses [Cleaveland] arrived at the mouth of the Cuyahoga river; And the burning river spoke to him.." -Paraphrased from Michael Feldman when broadcasting "Whadda ya Know?" from Cleveland.

Hey. I live here. I'm allowed to.

-Terry

Bob W._3

To this homeowner's eye it seems your near boiler piping is not totally kosher, what with the takeoff(s) from the header between the two risers. Am I seeing this correctly? If so, doesn't the colliding steam affect performance? Maybe one of the steam guys like Steamhead will comment.

Steamhead (in transit)

Good Eye, Bob

The problem is water getting caught between the risers. The older boilers had big steam chests and bigger steam outlets, so there wasn't the possibility of water coming up the risers that you have with newer units. So you could get away with doing deviant things like that.

Jeff, what about the main vents? Measure the length and diameter of your steam mains and tell us what vents are installed at their ends. Do not disturb old insulation- measure its outside diameter and subtract 2-1/4 inches to get the pipe size.

Jeff_53

Thanks to all of you who have weighed in on this post. Steamhead, you've helped me before with venting questions on my system mains, and on your advise, I've ordered a second Gorton #2 for my one of my mains. (I already have a Gorton #2 on one main, and a pair of Hoffman 75's on the other.) I'll leave the asbestos insulation alone.

Thanks again.