steam heat vs. forced air

t. tekushan

that this is an accurate statement: "I know I could save some money by putting in a forced air furnance"

My erstwhile auto mechanic owns a home in a neighborhood that is affected by the City of Cleveland's Airport Noise Abatement Program.

The house had leaky windows and steam heat. They were, however, always comfortable and not particularly grumpy about their gas bills.

The city came in and provided new windows, and pulled out the steam heat and replaced it with a forced air furnace (more "efficient" than their boiler) and air conditioning combo. The system is the usual compromise between heat and ac, neither one optimized.

Well. They're outraged to say the least. The house is now drafty and uncomfortable in the winter. Their fuel consumption is now markedly higher every year since the installation than any year in the past!
The air conditioning? fans are necessary to keep the air from stratifying with the hot air on top. They're really upset because they like the house. But he told me he would give anything to get that steam heat back.

He wished he had the opportunity to ask me about it before it was done, although he admitted he probably would not have listened to the advice I would have given him and am about to give you:

DON'T PULL OUT THE STEAM HEAT. Tune it up and update the boiler if necessary. There are so many good threads regarding steam's inherent efficiency. PLEASE read the recent thread on "DOE's Misinformation on Steam Heat" and then read the links therein.

BTW, install AC overhead. It will be more comfortable and efficient since it is optimized for cooling (sound familiar?). I recently did some audio work in a steam heated house nearby. The airconditioning was one of those high velocity systems with the small outlets on the ceiling. Unobtrusive, efficient, comfortable.
-terry

John Whitman

steam vs forced air

I recently bought a home in rural Illinois, originally built in 1868, and remodeled sometime in the 1930s or 1940s. It has very unique steam radiators throughout the 2500 sq ft house, and a very old boiler in the basement.

Considering I spent the last ten years in New York City, I am a big fan of steam heat. However, I am having trouble deciding whether I should replace the steam heat with forced air heat, and then tie in A/C at the same time.

My preferred contractor for this job is saying that he is experienced with steam radiators and can install a new boiler, but that my cost will be unnecessarily high if I decide later on to have forced air A/C installed.

Considering that the home was built in 1868---three layers of brick with no insulation---are radiators any better than forced air? Should I be considering one system over the other? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Bob W._3

John, Im just a homeowner but will give you my take on it. I doubt I would install a new steam system in a new home ( I would put in HWH). That said, my home is three bricks thick, with air space, no insulation, much the same as yours. I have a working single pipe steam system. The radiators are, I am told, American roccoco style. The house looks right with them. More importantly, the house feels good with the steam heat. I know I could save some money by putting in a forced air furnance, but it would not be as comfortable. Simply put, modern 90 plus furnaces push air that is almost cool by the time it gets into the room. No comparison to steam.
I've insulated the attic and am tightening up the windows. We are getting bids to replace the current boiler with a new, more efficient unit, correctly sized to the radiation we are now using. Staying with steam.

BTW, there is a hydronics guy on this site who lives and works in western Illinois, nickname Boilerpro. Maybe he will weigh in on this one.

clammy

stick with steam

Personally i would stick to steam after removing all the rads you'll be left with either empty recessed cavities or dis cloration of flooring to be refinished not to mention holes in thefloor.Be kind to your steam system and insulate your mains change your main vents and rads vents or repair bad traps or replace the inerts .If do replace the boiler check with the manafactors near boiler piping and copy that original water line and do all the above .Then have your contractor do a good skim on the boiler and also replace those old wet returns instead of dumping all that mud into that new boiler .If you've lived with steam you may not be to happy with a hot air system you can always add central a/c as a seperate system either a conventinal type system or a lower impact hi velocity system . peace clammy

john_27

Before you install your new boiler..a big question....how long
does it take to produce steam? If it is 8-10 minutes...your problem isn't there.....let us know exactly what is going on
....and we can better evaluate your situation

Dave_4

reply on steam heat specifics

Thank you to everyone who is responding!

As regards the specifics, the word from the last owner is that only the three radiators closest to the boiler were working when he moved out five years ago. (The house has sat empty and unheated during those five years.)

Given the age of the boiler (60 years+) and the fact that it runs on fuel oil, which I would like to eliminate, I would like to go ahead and start with a completely new boiler.

The past owner treated the system each year with a cleaner of some sort, and my preferred contractor for this job thinks that this has clogged the release valves in the other 20 or so radiators in the house. He thinks that once he changes the valves, this will allow steam to flow through these other radiators again.

So, to answer your question, I have no idea how long it takes to power up, because I have never had the current boiler on.

Looking forward to your reply!

John W.

Bob W._3

Terry, I have owned a number of homes and businesses with 90 plus efficiency furnaces (mostly Pulses, which I had good luck with, despite their problems). I am sure I could heat my home cheaper with forced air than with single pipe steam. I know this from past experience having replaced a steam system in my first home (a mistake, I now know). But if you read my entire Post you will notice I didn't convert to F/A in my present home, nor would I. Steam wins hands down on comfort and appearance. Just not on the fuel bill.

J.C.A._3

My advice....

Get the steam system working properly and you're going to be 1 happy camper...as long as it was done right in the first place. Have the system sized and install a new boiler to match the load.

Living in that part of the country MAY require some A/C depending on the area, and for it I would highly recommed some of the newer "split system" units now available.

You will have to heat the whole house, but will only NEED to cool the areas that are used the most in the Summer months. Some of the newer systems can be split for different areas, will take up less space as a whole compared to window units, and run far quieter than window units could ever dream of.

Here in the Northeast, I've been seeing alot of this done recently. It will save you lots of time, money and wall/floor penetrations by doing your system this way. The split units require only enough holes to accomedate the line sets for any of the blower units, as opposed to tearing out walls and floors for ductwork.

There are lots of makers of these split systems now. The ones I find most quiet and unobtrusive as far as looks go , are from Panasonic and Mitsubishi, but the choices have grown over the last couple of years.

Steam, properly installed is both comfortable and economic to run. "Central" A/C in a home that isn't set up for it becomes a messy and costly project. Do yourself a favor and look into what I've suggested. Hope this helped. Chris

Steamhead (in transit)

Links

Here's an ongoing study of fuel savings possible by fixing up a steam system:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=22035&mc=22

Here's one that was even more impressive- thanks, Dean!

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=171303&_#Message171303

and a similar one on a Vapor system- thanks Bill:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=21386&mc=33

Here's a comparison of steam vs. scorched air in similar houses:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=25079&mc=7

Steam wins hands down.

BTW, I wouldn't switch to gas until you have compared the cost per BTU in your area. The first "gotcha" is all the myriad fees and taxes associated with gas. These raise the cost per therm (100,000 BTU) considerably.

A gallon of oil contains 140,000 BTU, so you'd have to do some math to ascertain the cost per 100,000 BTU to make a valid comparison.

A modern oil-fired boiler will, if properly installed and maintained, run as cleanly and efficiently as gas. Plus, you can choose among different oil suppliers, but gas is essentially an unregulated monopoly in most areas.

What part of Illinois are you in? Dave "Boilerpro" Bunnell is in Amboy.

Dave_4

efficiency / Amboy

Thanks for the links to the comparisons between forced air and steam. All of the posts to my questions have helped me decide to stay with steam.

Amboy is a bit of a trek. Per Mapquest, it looks like Amboy is about 150 miles from where I am (Watseka).

The contractor I've been talking to about this project has worked with the local school system's steam heat system for some time, and so far he has seemed quite knowledgeable of steam systems and how to diagnose and fix problems with them. However, I think I will be checking in on this web site quite frequently so I can begin to understand steam on my own.

Thanks again!

Bob W._3

Check under Hot Tech Topics (on the main menu). There are many articles about steam, including sizing and replacing boilers.

t. tekushan

a thousand pardons...

Only the first part was addressed to you... The rest was addressed to anyone else considering the change.

A caveat I should have pointed out is that you have to compare apples to apples. A steam heating system with bad vents and much boiler scale will cost a FORTUNE to run. The new forced air will always outperform in terms of cost. I am doubting that the steam system replaced had a new boiler and new vents/traps?
I suppose this is one advantage that forced air and hot water heat have over steam. Their efficiencies remain about the same without much maintenance. Steam has this issue of boiler scale. The biggest problem is that you never can tell how much is in there. I've cleaned boilers with a commercial descaler and have always seen improvements in performance (ie comes to a boil faster and fills the system faster). Clean water coming out of the boiler during a blow down can be deceiving since scale will isolate the iron from the water. Only 1/4" of scale will increase fuel consumption about 40%! And nevermind the fact that iron sections will overheat under these conditions increasing the chance of boiler failure.
-terry

don_163

In your

case with a home that is not insulated then yes steam is the only way to go.

However if your house was built to today standard then I would find it hard that a steam boiler could compete with a condensing furnace that modulate its btus and speed of the
indoor fan.

Bob W._3

When our new boiler goes in, it should be with a Vaporstat. We will try to run it on ounces of pressure. I will be reporting back with fuel consumption data; hopefully a very positive report. Regards.

Steamhead (in transit)

Sure it could

for comfort, scorched-air loses every time. You can't get around the principle that moving air makes you feel cooler. Or that radiated heat warms you like the sun. Not to mention that the inside of ductwork looks like the birth of the universe after a few years' use.

Steamhead (in transit)

Sure it could

for comfort, scorched-air loses every time. You can't get around the principle that moving air makes you feel cooler. Or that radiated heat warms you like the sun. Not to mention that the inside of ductwork looks like the birth of the universe after a few years' use.

The big advantage steam has over hot-water is that it is far less prone to freezing during a power failure or fuel supply interruption. Sure you could put glycol in a hot-water system but that raises environmental issues (some locales prohibit draining glycol into the sewer, and it would really screw up a septic system) as well as possible contamination of the house water supply.

Many people are so used to screwed-up steam systems that they cannot envision how comfortable and efficient they can be.

don_163

And

I thought he was looking for a bias opinion.LOL.

Hello Frank I hope all is well with you and yours.

I think the argument about schored air as not being comfortable has no merit in todays world.
Yes that may have been true and the beginning but with todays technology and thermal wrap plus a proper installation force air has made big leaps to improving the comfort level in todays home.

No disrespect here Frank because you know you'll always be one of my heros..however if you have not check into todays force air technology then I would and do understand the reason for the same old statement time and time again.

Best regards.

Steamhead (in transit)

Oh, I know theyre

much better than the older units. No question there at all. Still, I'd pick steam or hydronic for maximum comfort and better over-all system efficiency.

Dave_23

Steam and AC

Stick with steam and add a separate air conditioning system. I had a SpacePak AC system installed about three years ago. It works EXTREMELY well and is very efficient. Some contractors offer a Winter/Spring discount for off season installations. I'm regularly amazed at how little it costs to operate the system. This Summer in Michigan was one of the hottest on record. At home, we ran the AC constantly for several weeks from May - September. I believe my total electric bill (separate, interruptible service) for the AC system never exceed $100 for the entire Summer! Granted, the cost of installing a SpacePak, Unico or other high velocity system is higher (maybe 2X) than an add-on to a warm air sys. Doing the typical cost of ownership-payback analysis doesn't factor in comfort, efficiency etc. Again, stick with your steam system and add a separate AC system, IMHO.

Christian Egli

Steam Anonymous

Welcome here John, I think we're all glad your making good decisions. Next time if someone sneers because your stuck on steam, just smile, you'll find lots of support and reasons here for noticing that steam heat is quite exceptional.

It was the obvious deluxe heat in the past. Still is today, you'll see it everywhere on TV sitcoms.

The only thing, steam had become somewhat intimidating until Dan Holohan created this wonderful site.

Dirk Wright

Indoor Air quality

Steam heat may be more efficient and more comfortable than forced air, but steam does absolutely nothing for indoor air quality. Indoor air pollution is a serious problem and people are basically indangering their health by ignoring it. You have to filter the air as well as provide outside make-up air to meet modern requirements.

If I had your house, I would keep the steam system, replace the boiler, and install an A/C small vent system with the capability of mak-up air as well as filtering and UV sterlization. I would make sure the air handler had an ECM blower and I would run it all the time. These ECM blowers run at very low speed to circulate the air without any noticable "breeze". They use one third of the electricity of ordinary blowers so they are practical to run all the time.

Steamhead (in transit)

Dirk, have you ever seen

the inside of a duct after a few years' service? From what I've seen it can look like the birth of the universe- mold, mildew and a host of other primordial life forms.

This leads me to the conclusion that while the usual steam system does not include ventilation to improve IAQ, the usual forced-air system seriously detracts from IAQ.

Dirk Wright

Ducts and dirt

Steamhead, I admit I don't have enough experience to answer your question. I paid people to clean my ducts when I bought this 35 year old house in 2001, but I did not see what they pulled out. I year or so ago I took one duct apart because I thought there was a problem and it was clean. I think that clean ducts are all about proper filter changes and nothing more. I have an electro-static air cleaner, aka "the bug zapper" and we don't have a dust problem, and we are lazy about dusting too! All I can say is that at least a forced air system has the potential to improve IAQ, but like anything else, abuse it and it will bite you in the ****.