Garage / Work Shop Heating Help

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I'd stay away from any blower units, as they will just keep the dust stired up, and need frequent coil cleaning. probably the most unheatly method with airborn dust.

Radiant ceiling would warm all those iron machines and provide comfort close to radiant floors.

I'd use a hydronic based system so you could chose, or combine fuel sources from electric, gas, wood, or solar assist.

Plenty of ways to do homeade radiant ceilings.

hot rod

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Robert L.

How to heat my garage / work shop help, Please

Thanks in advance if anyone could advise.

My garage, just north of Philadelphia, is now a woodworking shop. It is 12x19 with 7.5' ceiling height. It is R11 or 13 in all walls, concrete floor and probably R30 in the ceiling (2x10's). There is an insulated standard size garage door and one window about 2.5' x 4'.

I have hydronic baseboard in house. It is also on two interior walls of the house that are shared with the garage.

What would be the best way to heat this space - cost wise and temperature maintenance wise. The shop does not need to stay 60 degs all the time but should be warmed up before I use it. I call the cast iron machinery ice cubes because that is what they seem to be.

My father-in-law suggests plumbing the current baseboard into the garage and my friend says an electric ceiling or wall mounted heater should be fine - help!!!!

Thanks sooooo much.

kevin coppinger_4

If your present....

boiler is big enough...I would put in a properly sized cast iron rad to heat the area....kpc

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Robert L.

thanks but...

Hey Kevin,

I am trying to take up as small a space as possible. I have to add R13 to one exterior wall so I thought I would just inset the baseboard. I would probably put in 19ft of it. HOWEVER, I will have stuff in front of it. My father-in-law suggests putting the baseboard up 4ft on the wall since it will then be exposed.

Is there some sort of thin profile radiator?

kevin coppinger_4

yeah....

Panel radiators. I have them in my home. Go to buderus.net...go to product then click on radiant...then panel rads...lots of sizes....kpc

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Robert L.

Looks good

But what is the cost?

My wife has given me a small budget. Max bang for the buck is important.

How much heat do I need? Electric and hydronic?

I found an electric ceiling mount at Northern Tool. Puts out 17,ooo + BTU per hour - any good? However, it would blow - not so good for a saw dusty environment plus it would have red hot coils exposed too.

Jeff Lawrence_24

If you want the perfect solution

remove the concrete and install radiant throughout the entire shop. No way for an open flame to set off the sawdust, okay conduction between the ice cube saws, etc.

How much actual woodwork do you do? Maybe a wood burning boiler that you could burn your scrap in. It may be a good way to get rid of the mistakes, too.

With a limited budget, these suggestions may be difficult. Worth thinking about though...

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Robert L.

Cost is a big factor

When I build the dream house, the shop will have radiant in floor heat, and I will not be standing on concrete. I woodwork often but not enough!

For now, this approach is too costly. We already have a boiler that supplies a 2500 sq ft house with base board. I am thinking I could tap it or buy electric?

I am not sure how much heat I need for this small garage. If it is insulated as I described, do I just need something real small?

Bill Nye_2

Unit heater

How about a hot water fan/coil unit heater. A modine or Reznor heater could hang from your ceiling and blow warm air across your shop. The hot water from your boiler heats the coil. or they have a gas fired ceilng hung hot dawg.

Link http://modine.com/

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kevin coppinger_4

what are the ...

dimentions? doors, windows, etc? exposed wall, what is above? kpc

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Robert L.

All dimensions and R Factors in original post

My buddy was right, this is a great board!!!!!!

Robert L.

Interesting too.

The Hot Dawg looks sweet. Wish I had gas.

I like the hydronic unit heaters. I will check prices unless you know off-hand a ballpark cost.

Robert L.

How much heat is needed for the dimensions in the Orig. Post?

This space is so small that I am also concerned with blasting myself out of it.

However, three issues:
1 - Garage doors seem to be high heat loss even though insulated
2 - Lots of cast iron machinery acts like dry ice if the shop is not kept at a constant temp
3 - I will have machinery around the entire perimeter thus low mounted baseboard could be inefficient - can it be mounted 4ft off the ground?

So far I like the panel radiant but I am not sure of cost

Robert L.

Anyone with a suggestion for the amount of heat needed???

Joe Brix

what about

a hydronic fan coil. Checkout myson if you want to use your current hydronic system. Cheaker option would be infra-radiant electric heaters. Mount them over head. They'll warm objects not the air. Better for a quick warm up.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

For What It's Worth

About 4,500 btu/hr with 60° room @ 10° outside. This presumes that 1-12' and 1-19' wall are exposed--the other two walls are shared against HEATED portions of the house. Also assumes insulation is as you have stated and that it's built on an uninsulated concrete slab.

A cast iron radiator of about 35 sq.ft. EDR operating at about 160° average water temperature would be adequate. I wouldn't normally suggest mixing standing iron and baseboard (particular copper fin baseboard), but in this case, it [should] work OK as the shop is well isolated and temp fluctuations won't be as objectionable.

harvey

as usual

Hot Rod has the right idea

JackFre

Shameless plug...but...

I heat my garage with a Rinnai Energysaver. www.rinnai.us. Self contained wall furnace. I have a 1004 (10.5k-38kbtu, modulating valve and blower). When it is 0*F I can go down turn on the heater, go have coffee/brkfst and be working in my shirtsleeves. You could do the same with the model 556.

Hot Rod's point about air born dust is correct. If it is a wood shop especially you should have primary and secondary dust collection, both for your health and the heaters. I regularly pull the lid on mine and hit it with some compressed air/vacuum. You can run it off LP

Robert L.

This input is very valuable

Thanks so much - I am now scared of heating myself out of this small space!!!!!

Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Robert L.

Dust control is key

I do have primary and secondary dust control - even in this small space.

I will look into this site later.

Once it is up to temp - then blowing would be less of an issue - most likely.

I am neat around the shop but I do not like to sweep and clean until days end.

Any pure radiant suggestions or others without a blower?

Robert L.

This is way cool - the room above is a cold room too

This is a good possibility but what is the cost factor????

Any sites out there I could check out???

Do you think baseboard is out of the question since my walls will be lined with stuff blocking it?

Father in law suggests baseboard still but at 4' off the floor to avoid the issue of walls lined with mobile tools and lumber. Good or bad???????? And how many linear feet - he keeps saying 20' but neither one of know how much heat is given off of the baseboards?

Robert L.

Come to think of it

Are there any small mobile radiant oil units that put out what I need. I think they plug into electric and are quite portable.

hr

On design day

a properly sized blower unit, or any other for that matter, will run non stop. I've retro fit a few radiant celings with transfer plates from the finished space.

One shot is my own home with retro ThinFins. The other is a body shop with tall ceilings. the owner really likes the overhead radiant for body and paint work, although some floor radiant would have been a nice match with ceiling radiant. Ceiling radiant will not heat under stuff. Like cars and equipment.

You can supply much warmer temperature to radiant ceilings for higher output. The sheetrock manufactures are comfortable up to 140° ish.

hot rod

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Christian Egli_2

A conniving plan

Forced air is bad in drafty locations, the draft sucks the hot air out before you enjoy it, unless you fix the garage door.

You're into wood working and you've already got a boiler and you'll be standing on your feet all day long, so... why not improve on your concrete floor. Jeff thought of it but I wouldn't bust the concrete.

Add insulation on the floor, have a radiant loop installed on your current boiler, then build a wood floor over it.

From now on you'll be standing on a nice wood floor, more comfortable on the legs and imagine the feeling with nice mellow heat. Plus your cast iron ice cubes will thaw out. Right now, they're sucking all the cold from the floor, that won't happen with floor heat.

To bust the budget, you could even add under floor dust collection and electric lines.

Your wife will then find the garage so cozy, you'll be kicked out of it. Here's the secret plan: you'll then be able to put your tools in the bedroom, where you've always wanted them anyway.

Excellent!

jerry scharf_3

I'm with Hot Rod

Robert,

When someone says wood shop, my brain always goes to finishing. First, if you ever use laquer, you have one serious fire source. That rules out just about anything that takes inside air to combust of has an excessively hot surface. Please don't forget the exhaust system (having poisoned myself with acetone fumes once.)

As Hot Rod pointed out, radiant ceilings can take much hotter water. They have less mass, but you still won't feel warm until the walls and floors heat up enough to stop sucking your heat out. If you don't mind exposed stuff, the pex and radiant engineering thinfin on the surface would be just dandy. Any friends who do woodworking will be happy to work on your projects this winter.

I would put a timer switch in series with the thermostat, so you can't forget to turn the shop heat off and blow a bunch of fuel out the walls.

jerry

Robert L.

Budget buster

You are a bad influence! I would do this if I had a larger shop for sure. We will be putting a shop in the back yard in a few years so I do not want to spend that much.

I looked at the cost of radiant floor and it seems to high for our needs.

I guess this is the ultimate challenge for you guys - small or no floor footprint, low initial cost, easy to maintain, safe for a wood shop, dust friendly!

Robert L.

Great space saver too

I like this idea. Again, cost constraints are a factor.

Also, I am not sure about blowing out of my walls??? Can a system like this stay on all the time like my baseboard heat????

Steve Ebels_3

Things to do...........and not

I'd recommend a panel rad with a TRV. If you want to try to do it inexpensively, just T it into the supply and return side of your existing system and let it run whenever your current circ runs. This is a little haphazard control wise but if it were mine I'd at least try it before installing something dedicated to the garage only.

I would not recommend ANY kind of heater, electric, gas, oil, direct vent, sealed combustion or whatever for an area which is used for woodworking. Too much danger from hot surfaces, too many problems with dust. IIRC, the ignition point of sawdust is only about 400* and the surface temp of the HX on any type of fuel fired heater will exceed that easily. We had a 15,000 sq ft wood furniture shop burn to the ground in about 20 minutes last winter from ignition of dust on top of the tube heater reflectors.

Trust me, such an event will not impress your better half!

Robert L.

Ok Ok - what is the cost ????

I really like this method but what is the cost. How much do I need, can it be left on like my base board heat in the house.

Let me get back to base board 4' off the floor. Is this out of the question? I have to fur out the 20' exterior wall for R-13 anyway?????? Your thoughts Hot Rod.

See my Ultimate Challenge comment below Christian's post.

You guys out here are great. I never thought I would find a board as good as woodcentral.com.

jerry scharf_3

On all the time

Robert,

It's just fuel/money. Of course you can have it on all the time. I just assumed that you didn't want not spend the money of heating the unit when you don't need it. It's not going to be cheap to heat the shop and didn't see what good it did to keep it warm at 3AM.

I should have said flowing out of the walls rather than blowing out. Now with the garage door, blowing is usually as true as flowing.

As for cost, doing it exposed should make it fairly cheap. You are not using a new heat source, and the tubing and plates are not that expensive. My thoughts for the controls (dirt simple) wouldn't be costly either. If you do all the tubing/plate installation labor, the cost to add it in could be modest. Of course, that is said without any knowledge of the existing heating system...

jerry

Robert L.

Excellent follow-up

Forgive me, I am not that familiar with HVAC terminology.

I really like this idea. Inexpensive is good but what is inexpensive? Less than $500 is good for me.

I have an oil boiler that sends hot water to baseboard whole house. I can tap into this line as an open loop. Thus, on all the time unless there is a valve I can turn it I and off with.

How much heat would I need for this small space?

Bob W._3

Cast iron baseboard? Would foul up less than fin.

http://www.burnham.com/radiator/58100.cfm

Steve D._2

I was thinking of a Monitor heater when I read the above post about the Rinnai. I heat a home in NH with 2 monitors and it is a very comfortable heat with modulating output. They burn outside air so solvents will not get into the burn. Fuel is K-1 or gas. My small unit (20000BTU)had a tank inside so you could refill yourself without a large tank and delivery service (local code may prohibit this - CT does). There are hot bits inside but if you are diligent about dust clouds you should be ok.

Although I share concern about the dust, I have not seen anyone mention the risk of freezing your hydronics. I have a broken cast iron rad in my garage from when the power went out and cracked it. I would think you would need the heat on all the time or a heat exchanger / glycol like a snowmelt system.

Probably for another forum, but what the heck; I have followed a lot of techniques in Garrett Hack's "Handplanes" book and do not miss my lung clogging sandpaper. Life in the shop is a lot quieter too.

Al Corelli

Forget the baseboard on the wall.

Radiant ceiling is the cat's meow.

kevin coppinger_4

you need...

a LOCAL contractor to come in and work with you on the ideas posted here...we don't know what the cost of doing business is there...and generally we don't talk prices here.Best of luck to you. Stay warm. kpc

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Robert L.

Thanks for all of your help Kevin - Much appreciated!

Christian Egli_2

Blow your budget on a sweater

And if that's too much, maybe just a scarf?

This post is coming up with all the nice ideas. I'm hoping we're giving you too much choice now.

To share some more experience:

Our restrooms at work have fin tube radiation on the ceiling. It works very good.

In more open areas we've got radiant gas burners, the ceramic type. Dust does not accumulate on the burning parts. We find they add a lot of humidity.