ATTN Mass installers !!!

Dick Charland

I have heard so many false statements regarding these new regulations. They are not mandating any clearance requirements other than the manufacturers'. They changed the height requirement for adding a sign and including CO detectors, but they are fairly clear. I've had people tell me that all new venting has to be 3'above grade (now 7'), that's not the case. Furthermore, they don't invalidate the manufacturers' installation instructions, you still have to go by those, in most cases 1' above grade or "normal" snow level. Accordingly, for most installations, you'll have to add a sign outdoors and CO detectors.

I have been to too many installations where the termination was installed incorrectly and they had nothing but problems. I've had installers call to ask about some waiver because the building contractor has forced them into a bad location for venting. It will be interesting to see vent locations now especially when a sign has to be posted. My guess is they will then have to have a regulation that states no bushes can be planted in front of etc.

What I found of interest is the regulation doesn't apply to a building not attached to a residence, separate from. I guess there's no danger there.

joel_19

ATTN mass installers !!

As you are all aware we have new regs that went into effect last month in the peoples republic of Massachussettes , governing every direct vent gas appliance . That will make things much more difficult for us and for the home owner .

What you may not yet know is that as of last Friday these regs where revamped exstensivly and the rules have changed once again . To me it is even more confusing and wrought with what if's than the first set of new rules was . This may effect jobs you have already quoted and are going to start on Monday !!!!

You can find out more by going to mass.gov and searching around . I don't have the exact link .

"Ours is not to reason why but to do and die" .

"Good luck and may god have mercy on our souls ".

Firedragon_4

Read MA gasfitters below!

Constantin

Good morning

I think you may be referring to this Emergency Revision of the MA code that can be found on the MA Rules and Regs site. I have yet to look at the amendment (must have coffee first). Cheers!

Firedragon_4

This whole matter is

turning into the infamous Chinese Fire Drill.

One theory is that the Plumbing Board may not even have the right to change NFPA54 since it is an NFPA document and therefore falls under the Board of Fire Prevention Regulations and the Fire Marshal's Office.

Another problem is 'snow grade'. One agency of the US government defines snow grade as the typical maximum snow fall for ONE storm.

Plymouth, MA where this tragedy occured had a one in a hundred year storm, all the signs in the world would not have saved little Nicole. Everyone comes to complete and full stop at every stop sign all of the time, right?

The other government agency defines snow grade as the typical snow grade being present on the ground during the average winter, go figure.

The two agencies are NOAA and the NWS and one answers to the other, not that there would ever be contridictions in government, oh noooooooooo! LOL!

Dick Charland

??????

George, they are basically requiring a sign on almost all direct vent installations and the added provision of CO detectors. Fortunately/unfortunately it still falls back on following the manufacturers' instructions and we all know we can't fix stupid. I was in MA last winter around the time of the the incident and I remember a news story which showed the vent termination 6" off of the ground, how did that pass inspection? A sign might not have prevented the tragedy last winter, a CO detector might have.

The unfortunate thing is there is so much misinformation being spread about these regulations. Whether I agree with them or not, they seem fairly clear.

Firedragon_4

Not to be critical ****,

but what is your definition of snow grade? You can pick the area.

[Deleted User]

Simple solution

I have been installing and recommending a minimum 30" rise above grade on all sidewall vented equipment for the last 20 years. Make this the standard and have manufacturers create kits to help you do that and the basic problem is solved.

I support the CO detector portion, in fact I would like to see it mandated for all installations. I would also like to see them go with low level detectors.

Sidewall venting is sometimes difficult when it is an after thought at installation. The proper training of installers and pre-planning the installation will solve these problems.

All installers and service techs should be required to have attended a course on venting and ventilation along with combustion testing and these incidents will tend to be lessened.

I am not sure that putting a sign will stop people from doing stupid things.

Constantin

I agree

Signs won't do anything but make the sign-makers happy... placing vent terminations above 100-year snow + drift levels will do something for safety, yet setting said levels is difficult indeed. My gut feeling is that anytime something isn't at least 6' off the ground that there is a good possibility of snow drifts getting into the way... and we had snow drifts higher than that in MA last year.

Unfortunately, if you were to require a minimum 6' distance off the ground, I suspect that most basement terminations would also become illegal. So, I can understand why so many stakeholders want to keep basement terminations, it makes life so much easier for the installers, and less expensive for the consumers. Furthermore, one could make the argument that an appliance should have a proper lock-out re: snow or other obstructions, which, if reliable, would give installers and homeowners more more install options.

Anyway, I wish the relevant authorities would have the guts to mandate low-level CO detectors instead of the allegedly unreliable detectors sold in the marketplace today. UL2034 should be scrapped and replaced with a safe standard.

Firedragon_4

Amen brother and

there it is again, E-D-U-C-A-T-I-O-N! Instead of more rules they should have mandated more education, FACT!

I know of only one company that has a kit ready-to-go for this and had it ready before hand. I guess the others are going to have to get moving now and how do you vent from a basement seven feet up? Should be very attractive on the outside of the house!

Someone first has to determine what snow grade is because that is the major problem out there, JMO. I've heard 12" (NOT) to 4 feet (NOT)!

Once someone has determined the true requirements then you can teach it, after that I agree with ****, it's all written down.

Firedragon_4

Right on,

and although this case will be in litigation for some time, I'm wondering what happened to the air-flow switch?

CO detectors should be in these homes, tight or loose today, but what happened to THE essential and IMO most important switch on this job?

Although air proving switches are mandatory on power-venters and inducers I hate to tell you how many I've seen jumped out or missing altogether, if I had a buck for every one I've seen I wouldn't be here. I'd propbably be in the chair next to McElwain in Florida, LOL!

This goes back to Combustion Education, if you're gonna play with fire, learn something about it, FACT!

ed wallace

signs

ok what color should the sign be?

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allenh

the sign is kinda interesting

How are the homeowners that are into asthetics going to react to a sign 8 feet above grade?

3. A metal or plastic identification plate shall be permanently mounted to the
exterior of the building at a minimum height of eight (8) feet above grade
directly in line with the exhaust vent terminal for the horizontally vented gas
fueled heating appliance or equipment. The sign shall read, in print size no less
than one-half (1/2) inch in size, “GAS VENT DIRECTLY BELOW. KEEP
CLEAR OF ALL OBSTRUCTIONS”.

Firedragon_4

Yeah, and a guy

in a plow is going to stop and read the sign too!

That's what happened here from what I've been told, the vent and air inlet were plowed under, driveway side, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

Dick Charland

What's being missed here??

Regardless of whatever you choose as a snow level, 2',3', 5'depending on location and depending on orientation of house if you cannot install the equipment properly, it cannot be installed. Many direct vent units allow you to run your venting up through the roof and that means bringing the combustion air intake up there as well. There are still limits on length of intake/venting, intake/venting diameters and height/proximity of terminations. If the installation instructions cannot be followed, the alternative is a disfferent appliance properly sized and installed chimney with provision for combustion air. Regretably we've seen to many chimneys installed so unfortunately that's not a fool proof solution. How many VHE units went in without liners despite instructions specifying their use.

No question that education is crucial, along with the pride of craftsman like work ethic, something sadly missing. The controlling factor in the end should be an educated, knowledgeable inspection process. You'll still have people trying to beat the red light, stop sign or code regulation. Hopefully, it won't result in a multi car pileup with innocent people as victims.

joel_19

New rules

the new rules are a problem specifically the sign . What happens when 8 ft up is the center of a window ? homowners will freak , most remove the red oil burner switch plate the second we leave . the sign will not save lives it will only force people into not pulling an inspection or getting a permit . The harder it is for a legit contractor to get a permit the more tempted a home owner will be to hire a hack . The CO detector is a good idea but the sign is stupid . I see oil power venters done wrong all the time , much worse than gas . This rule does nothing for oil . it does nothing about people removing or jumping out pressure switches . A buried vent should not hurt anyone the unit should shut off . It will force more people to install lower eff equipment into older unsafe chimneys. chimneys are in fact the real danger , particuarly with oil where clay liners are getting destroyed by condensation . How many more people will die because they choose to use an old unsafe chimney ? If you vent into a chimney the CO detector is not required ?? That's just nuts. Why are they creating new rules when many times the exsisting ones are simply ignored ?

[Deleted User]

George, I have had

pressure switches that would close and bring the burner on when the air flow was not adequate. I have had two recently that with the exhaust vent blocked over 50% would still operate the system.

With direct vent systems the possibility of cross contamination often exists. When there is not a thermocouple operated system that causes a pilot outage and a typical service call but a spark ignition or HSI system it will keep retrying and sometimes find enough air flow to just hang in their but still be making CO. This is something that often happens on gas systems. On oil with the CAD cell less likely to occur.

Firedragon_4

And that as they say is not

only a mouthful Joel :-), but right on too!

BTW, just a point of interest. There is nothing in the codes that say that switch plates must be 'red', only 'clearly marked for their purpose', but I know what you meant.

In my home it's a teddy bear holding a sign that says, 'oil burner', I dare anyone to get by my wife and remove it.

In the past I used switch plates that had my company's name and/or a thermometer on it. I always had them made up in white, goes with just about everything, FACT!

Firedragon_4

Ya didn't answer my

'snow grade' question **** :-) and it's a major point of this whole issue, FACT!

Dick Charland

Sure did

If you're looking for someone to give you a specific you'll never get it. It must be left to the judgement and experience of a "knowledgeable" installer familiar with the area he/she is working in. Additionally, say the snow level was 12", with grade requires 2' and you install it on the northeast side which is susceptible to drifting, was it installed improperly at 2', my answer is yes. Here in VT in the Burlington vicinity the expected snow level is less than the snow belt I live in, contractors must be aware of this and not try to be blind to it regardless of location. I'll always advocate making an error on the side of safety. If you can't honestly meet the manufacturers' installation requirements you can't put it in. We would not be selling all of this direct vent equipment if this was being answered honestly.

The same has held true for chimneys, we have known for years that chimneys should be lined but we don't want to talk to the homeowner about that part of the job. Unfortunately, as Joel said they might get a hack to do it. My answer is so what, if you "educated" the homeowner about what really needed to be done and they opt to have someone incompetent do an inferior job shame on them. Better than shame on you when the chimney falls down or you get caught for a code violation that then costs you to repair.

[Deleted User]

Interesting comparison

for years when a type "B" vent termination was needed and using the tables for roof pitch you could come up with a 1' height above a low pitch roof. My company set a standard for our area of no less than 2'. I always terminated them at 3' just to be safe.

Firedragon_4

Okay, I'll let it go,

you don't know and neither do I. :-)

BUT, that's the biggest part of the problem, JMO!

The inspectors are looking at the best two sources out there, the National Weather Service and NOAA and they don't agree with one another, guess it will take a lawsuit to solve ths one unless GAMA wants to go boldly where mere mortals fear to tread, LOL!

BTW, no knowledegable installer knows either because they're waiting for the inpsectors to tell them and it's okay to just say 'I don't know', I just did!