Prestige/Ultra ODR Curve Plotter

Guy Woollard

Strangely enough, the piping was reconfigured due to the suggestion that a contractor had made. Some of the other items are the things that need to get through agency approval in order to sell them here, and that takes time. I will pass along your suggestions.
As for the flip down door- there are as many reasons to hide the display as there are to expose it. Sometimes homeowners get confused about what they are seeing and either relentlessly pester their contractor, or worse yet, make their own adjustments. The cover is simply there to dissuade those who don't understand the boiler from making any undue adjustments.

Guy Woollard
N.E. Regional Sales Mgr.
Triangle Tube Corp.

Uni R_3

Visualize the curve on your MCBA controller

I wanted to see how well my ODR curve was dialed in. To test it, I set the boiler to run purely of ODR using P34. I've had to back off 10°F along the whole curve so far. I thought I was closer. Anyway, this helps me fine tune at both ends.

If your have a MCBA controller or use a 4 point system to map your curve, this tool will allow you to plot it out, and up to 3 others as well.

Xc8p2dC_2

software

Did you get or add an PC interface kit to the TTor is that something else

Still can't find one for the Ultra, anyone know what the hang up is on the Gascom software

John McArthur_2

Very cool, thanks for posting

Uni R_4

Just a spreadsheet...

The PC interface isn't available for the Prestige yet. It would be the same as the Ultra except the default settings in some folders (which doesn't really seem necessary since they are documented). Anyway...

This is just an Excel spreadsheet and it can be used to help adjust the curve from points along the middle. It works very well. Print off a copy and take it down to your Ultra. Step through the INFO and you'll find the target temp on the graph is the same as on your Ultra based on the ODT reading.

Uni R_3

A correction, an update and a complaint.

A Correction:

The MCBA works of the boiler return temperature not the supply. I'll fix the spreadsheet accordingly at some point.

An Update:

I'm still running purely off the outdoor sensor and it is 6°F outside, which is unseasonably cold for here (permit design temp is 0°F). The house is still 75°F. I'm dropping the settings to 138,86,-2,60 which results in a .84 curve. This basically means that my boiler will be condensing 99% of the time with crap fin-tube and this leads to...

A Complaint:

This is a theoretically a 110K-30K boiler in a normal 1975 house with a heatloss of 55K and I doubt the boiler will ever get to modulate anything except it's on-off times at minimum fire. The IBR number is 88K which was actually what the municipal inspectors used to ensure it was big enough. Man is it big enough!!!

There really should be more small modcon boilers on the market in the 50-60K max range. Right now only one mfr. has one in that range - they all should.

Ross_16

modulation

UniR,
Do you find that the triangle tube short cycles, with such a low heat load? I was still kicking around the idea of installing a prestige, but my heat loss is around what yours is about 49mbtuh at design load. Any input on this?
Ross

Wayco Wayne_2

I second the

need for a smaller boiler. Prestige has talked about it but I've seen no action from my small perspective. WW

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Uni R_3

Kingsize my boiler

Ross, I guess the key thing would be defining short cycling. To me on a boiler like this, I would think that 5 minutes or less would be short cycling. On an oil fired conventional boiler, perhaps somewhat longer.

Given that and the default of the boiler being 10 minute firing cycles (I haven't changed this parameter yet) and then varying the time of the gaps in between the 10 minute firing cycles, I would say that short cycling is not a problem. I'm still planning to put on a buffer tank but only because I want to see how one works.

I must point out that when I clocked my boiler at the minimum firing rate, it was consuming 40K instead of 30K. At 30K, I think my pre-purchase calculations said I wouldn't run continuous until just under 30°F OAT.

I'll be following up on the 40K minimum firing rate with my contractor and TT support and see what we can do. Perhaps with a combustion test to support it, we can try and change the minimum fan speed. I would imagine that there is a fairly wide safety margin in there that could be narrowed if done properly. Still, I do expect it to go down to a 30K input.

Bottom line though Ross, this is still the best boiler for
my application. It'll be a "2 stage" boiler if I ever get my act together and get the domestic piping moved over. ;-)

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Wayne, I couldn't agree more. If they lopped the ratings on the 110 down to a 60-15 model, it would be perfect for many folks besides me. How big are European houses and just how cold does it get there? The reset curves on the MCBA and some of the others tends to only go to -4°F/-20°C, and they have far tighter building requirements in many jurisdictions than here. So where are these small capacity boilers?

What I had heard from T-T was that the only thing coming in the near term were even bigger models, so I guess they are thinking commercial first.

Guy Woollard

Prestige

The Prestige holds more water than most of the competing mod/cons, and therefore is less prone to short cycling. That's not to say that it CAN'T, but it is less likely.
As for smaller Prestige units- I'm going to work on that, but I'm not offering any promises yet. I'm the new guy here...

If you are attending ASHRAE next week, find our booth- I'll give you the nickel tour.

Guy Woollard
N.E. Regional Sales Mgr.
Triangle Tube Corp.

Uni R_3

Guy

Maybe as the new guy you can champion a few other Prestigious causes besides getting some smaller rated models?

How about moving the tappings for the common return and domestic supply about an inch more from the wall? There just isn't even enough to turn a 1¼" black iron elbow as it is. Even a half inch would do it! There is nothing in the design preventing this.

How about a better idea than the current flipdown door? Why cover the pressure gauge and digital readout? They are both useful information. My 7 year old really questions the wisdom of that design. What should I tell him on behalf of T-T? ;-)

Why not offer both top-plates for the boiler? Allow people the option of using full coax, just like on the ACVs in Europe. Why have contractors drilling two holes when they could drill just one? That's far easier than trying to do two level holes with the right space in between. That would be a very easy thing to do I might add, if you want to tackle something easy first. Just have that part and the venting available. Viessmann makes a lot of money selling venting, LLHs, secondary mixing controls, etc. The Prestige has all of that available in Europe, even a branded hydrolink, why not try and sell more than just the boiler here in North America? Just start slowly by suggesting the coax...

Ross_16

Prestige Noise level

Hey guys,

Now, Wayco Wayne has said the Prestige is whisper quiet, have you found this to be true? No knock against Wayne, just asking different opinions. I asking because I'll be installing this next to the "Dude Room" in my basement. Thanks!
Ross

Mark Hunt

The Prestige is VERY quiet


We have a few out there and they are quiet.

Mark H

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McKern

Depends...

At 5300rpm it's probably about on par with a range hood. At 1900rpm, you won't hear it unless you are next to it.

Ross_16

noise level

Thanks Mark! The reason I was wondering is I fired up a PI-199, the other day & that mother was kind of loud on high fire.

Uni R_3

The MCBA cannot short-cyle, unless you give it permission

"The Prestige holds more water than most of the competing mod/cons, and therefore is less prone to short cycling. That's not to say that it CAN'T, but it is less likely."

************************************************

Guy, actually the water capacity has next to nothing to do with short-cycling on Prestige boilers, its all in the controller.

The Prestige is preset so that parameter 42 is 00. This means that the MCBA controller will force it to run for a minimum of 10 minutes each firing cyle. If you set P42 to 01, it will cycle or short-cycle at whatever rate it the sensors tell it to. This is the same for the W-M Ultra.

Simply put, a Prestige or Ultra cannot short cycle unless you explicitly give it permission and also provide the right kind of circumstances that are conducive to short cycling.

I have the watt-meter on mine again and I'll post a graph of what it does over the next few days with the anti-short-cycling parameter switched off if it looks interesting enough.

My Prestige is currently driving the whole house off the boiler circ using ODR only so it won't be conducive to short cycling but it should be interesting to see how it cycles on its own.