Watching a killer at work... (ME)

Keith Johnston_3

Did you think of using a video camera? Then we could all see what you have described. A camera is a lot cheaper than a funeral.

[Deleted User]

Do NOT try this at HOME or WORK....

You all remember the post regarding the cold start snowmelt boiler that kept spilling products of combustion into the room on a cold start. We are replacing it this week with a sealed combustion unit. I'll be better able to sleep at night knowing the killer in their basement is no more.

The HO called me last Friday and told me she was leaving home, and didn't want her house guests to have to put up with the problematic boiler, and wanted to know if I could drop by and somehow get it to start and stay running before the next storm came through. I obliged.

When I got there, it was quite evident that the boiler had spilled long and hard enough to burn up all the wiring directly outside of the combustion chamber. Which brings to mind a question to those manufacturers who are saavy to the requirements of roll out switches. The boiler has CSD1 compliant controls, but there is NO roll out detection/prevention on CSD1 boilers. Why is that?

Read on.

I replaced the burned up wiring and the blown fuse. I then grabbed a CO detector and plugged it in to the electrical outlet in the room. I then turned the appliance on, and crawled over into the corner of the room that had the combustion air pipes coming into the room, and held my face in such a position that I could get plenty of fresh air, but watch this whole death process from beginning to end and not interrupt it as I had done in the past.

The boiler fired on low fire and a MAJOR roll out occurred. Made my sphincter do the momba... Shortly thereafter, the burner shut down due to loss of pilot signal (no flame in the presence of CO2). I looked at the CO detector (Kidde Night Hawk) and it was showing around 300 PPM. The boiler went for another pilot retry and clicked for almost a minute before the oxygen level got up to the point that the pilot relit. Again, main burner came on and again MAJOR roll out (like 100%) occurred for about a minute and a half. By this time, the CO detector was showing around 500 PPM and rising quickly, and again, the boiler self snuffed, turning itself off.

This time it was off for around a minute before it went back for a retry, and now the CO detector was maxed out at 999 PPM (3 digit display). Still no audible alarm going off.

Again, the boiler went for a relight, and this time had barely enough draft to allow sustained combustion. White vapor was pouring out of the lower combustion chamber inlet, any minor cracks in the sealed off relief vent, and the barometric damper. CO detector was still pegged at 999. The boiler finally caught a good draft, and I could feel it on my face due to the incoming rush of cold air pouring down the 10" combustion air pipe. CO detector still pegged at 999 PPM. This is now about 5 to 7 minutes into the whole process.

At about 10 minutes into the process, the CO on the detector/alarm started slowly dropping down from it maxed out postition. Within 15 minutes, the CO was below 300 PPM, and by 20 minutes it was down to 0 PPM.

There is a bedroom (guest) directly above this boiler room, and the sheet rock between the boiler room and the bedroom above was never completed due to the antics of the hydronic wannabe's tubing installation. No excuse, but it happens ALL the time.

So, now you know how THIS killer worked, and self corrected, and why it is that when the fire department shows up and there are dead bodies or sick bodies laying around from CO poisoning, their only option is to say "Defective gas appliance".

I did not have my company CO detector/analyzer with me (one in the shop, other being used by other people) so I really can't tell you how high the CO went in the room, and before you call me foolish for exposing myself to these conditions, I was careful to make sure I had access to fresh, CO free air during this scenario. But it makes me wonder a couple of things. What migth have happened to the HO had she walked into the boiler room during peak CO. I've heard of the CO being high enough to drop a human like a lead cinch before. Instant death I think its called.

And why is it that the AGA or UL or whatever agency it is that controls these appliances feels that there is no need to provide roll out prevention/detection on these bigger boilers.

Lastly, why in the hell didn't the CO detector go off on audible alarm. I understand that there is a time weighted value to the audible alarm, but isn't there a threshold where all time elements are taken out of the equation? Like 400 PPM or something? If there's not, there certainly should be....

The path that your CO kiler takes may vary, and I don't envy first responders trying to find this elusive killer, but in my professional estimation, this potential killer could be contained had the standards of construction of the boiler required a fusible link roll out detection device for the width of the boiler burner tray...

BTW, we had a roll out detection switch at the barometric dampers roll out potential point, and it was rendered useless by the roll out fire that burned up the wiring on the front of the boiler, thereby eliminating that particular safety device (circuit was still closed).

The only thing that really saved her bacon was the fact that the 24 volts going to the main gas valve were fused together thereby blowing the secondary fuse, shutting the whole process down. I seriuosly doubt that it was by "design"...

Any of you manufacturers/experts care to enlighten us gas folk???

ME

Mitch_6

You\" are\" nuts

How did you know for sure you were not exposed.

Try adding a roll out switch and a draft inducer into a proper liner.

Mitch S.

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Constantin

Glad you made it out OK...

... maybe you ought to consider getting/using a SCUBA tank for assignments like this. It could save your life.

Fascinating narrative, congrats on getting the problem solved and hopefully, this killer will be put away for good once you have a sealed system going.

hr

you seem to be taunting

death a lot lately. First the legoinella deal, now the CO dare. You're starting to worry me

I'll send you a belt clip CO detector if the boss won't spring for one.

Or have George send you a "special" low level CO Experts to carry with you.

Be careful out there, we are not as quick and agile as once were.

hot rod

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jp_2

you assumed what?

so, you "assumed" you were breathing fresah air?

boy, if I charged $120.00 an hour to talk to people on the phone and $350.00 an hours doing designs, I would have a better CO detector than a kidde??????????????????
won't jim davis sell you a NCI3000?

think you have inhaled too much CO already....

Joe Mattiello

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

I'm curious1

ME,

Given that the draft eventually established itself, I'd sure like a tour of the venting system. Alot of our customers live in century+ age housing with unlined brich chimneys. It's not uncommon to witness a cold brick chimney resisting natural drafting of combustion products. We had that issue in our first home - an early 1900's row home. We sat at the bottom of a high hill over which the prevailing wind often exerted pressure restricting natural draft.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for your concern...

I have Personal protection device on order, with profits from this job:-) But you are all missing the points here.

Why is it that none of the manufacturers have stepped up to the microphone (keyboard) to explain why it is that bigger appliances are allowed to spill products of combustion into the living environment?

And why is it that I can sit (lay) there and watch a CO alarm at 999 + PPM and not alarm?

It's bad enough that we as contractors expose ourselves to these conditions, and worse on a daily basis, but why should the consumer be allowed to get exposed to this crap?

Trust me, I didn't put myself into a dangerous situation without taking extra precautions. I had predialed 911 on my cell phone, and my finger was on the SEND button. And I didn't do it as a matter of heroics. I did it because I wanted to witness these situations that we conject about on a regular basis in a first hand format.

SOME ONE has the answers. Am I like the camel with his nose under the tent here?

Glen? Paul? Ferris?

ME

[Deleted User]

The Venting system...

Dave, this was a 10" B vent, with one set of 22-1/2 degree offset, rising vertically, internally, approximatley 35 feet. THere was a minor amount of single wall connector (less than 8') between the appliance outlet and the B vent. When we first inherited the orphan, it was spilling BIG time out the draft hood. We blocked the factory relief hood and installed a barometric damper and spill switch in an effort to get the situation under control. Those modifications seemd to wrk when we were standing there watching it fire, but we kept getting called back to the job to find the ignition module in a lockout condition.

THe appliance is in an extremely noise sensitive area (bedroom above), so a Tjernlund or other inducer was not viable.

The room is unheated, and gets REAL cold when it is cold outside.

The AGA fuel gas code actually allows an appliance to spill for a certain amount of time (2 minutes if memory serves me correctly) before draft is established.

ME

Rich Kontny_3

Mark,

We all take chances and have taken chances,I'm with Hot Rod on this one. You need to take a couple steps back and take all the extra precautions. We all have had the black cloud or "Murphy's Law" come into play.

We all hope you are ok and please try to avoid the unseen traps. We need your expertise on this site!

Rich K.

Make Peace Your Passion !

[Deleted User]

Re: Vidieo camera

I don't as a rule carry my video camera with me to work. I do have the ability to do a 30 second video on my digital camera,but that would not have been long enough.

The killer has been laid to rest. This opportunity hopefully won't raise its ugly head again in the near future, but if it does, I WILL run home for the digital camcorder to share what I saw.

Anyone else out there hear crickets???

ME

hr

Cold slugging

is a term I have heard several CO experts use. The flue can get cold enough to prevent a draft and cause byproducts of combustion to enter the room. It seems to be more common especially in oversized, cold vent systems with appliances that use ignition instead of standing pilots.

Then again the basic hot water tank doesn't have spill or roll out protection devices either.

Sealed combustion with a properly designed and installed vent systems looks to be the future of fired appliances as we look to ultimate efficiencies, and owner safety.

hot rod

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[Deleted User]

Agreed...

and as I have said before, if the federal gubernmint would get off its collective arses and require a minimum efficiency of 90+ percent, sealed combustion would become the norm, and we could reduce everyones gas consumption by 30% at a MINIMUM, and the number of CO deaths from gas fired heating appliances would PLUMMET.

It would also require mechanical engineers to think more modularly for larger loads, using mod cons, thereby increasing overall thermal efficiencies SIGNIFICANTLY.

Less expensive to install? Hardly, but there WOULD be significant benefits from lowering the carbonacous foot print for a given project/process.

According to Jim Olstynski (SP, sorry James) e-news letter in Radiant and Hydronics newsletter, The Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association and a leading energy efficiency advocacy group have joined to ask Congress to pass legislation establishing new federal minimum efficiency standards: 82% AFUE for gas hot water boilers plus specific energy saving design features. The DOE proposes a standard of 84% AFUE. “GAMA will diligently pursue Congressional passage of the consensus boiler standards that will save energy while preserving consumer safety,” says GAMA President Jack Klimp.

A step in the right direction for sure, but a baby step none the less.

BTW, if you don't subscribe to Radiant and Hydronics, they have a web site at www.radiantandhydronics.com

ME

(EDIT: Added picture of new half million btuH "savior" appliance.)

Edward A. (Ed) Carey_3

CO and water tank

Hot Rod,

You are right on point about the cold slugging condition on larger cold start equipment. I have also seen it. However it was under a bit different condition than Mark used.


Hot rod said:
"Then again the basic hot water tank doesn't have spill or roll out protection devices either".

That is true about the protection devices but a hot water tank such as a water heater is not a cold start device. Maintaining the hot water in the tank assists the chimney in maintaining draft.

Not that a water heater type tank can not roll out or spill, but it normally has to also experience a malfunction, like a blocked flue or blocked chimney to cause the condition.

Mark appears to have had a perfectly serviceable unit that was so cold that the draft conditions simply reversed when it tried to start. The heating unit itself did not malfunction and directly cause the condition. The draft problems with a fully open chimney vent, reversed, and caused the problem with an otherwise serviceable unit.

This was a great thread.

Thanks for sharing it with us Mark.

And,,,,, Nope, Mark, I don't hear those crickets



Ed Carey

hr

thanks Ed

I hadn't considered the warm tank to keep the hot air rising. Also stealing fuel dollars:)

Actually, ME the current issue of Appliance Design has an artile about raising the standards. As`I read it GAMA is opposed to the 90% They want to stay in the 80% range due to concerns about venting issues when condensing temperatures are present.

Good point really as most older homes have B vent or masonary chimneys. All would need to be upgraded.

And of course the elephant in the room, in my opinion, is PVC. Is it in fact a "listed" product to convey byproducts of combustion? Seems we still tip toe around that question.

hot rod

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hr

link to DOE proposal, article

http://www.appliancedesign.com/CDA/Archives/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000018523

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Alan(OnVacationInOregon)Forbes

Given

that the Europeans are 20 years ahead of us, both in government standards and gas heating equipment, what do they do?

Jeff Lawrence_25

Wondering...

Since that looks like a sealed combustion boiler, what's the in-line fan (on the right) doing/ At first, I thought it was some kind of a fan-in-a-can, but looking closer, I'd guess a radon fan?

Wayco Wayne_2

Europe uses

stainless steel for flu pipes because of the chlorides that can leach out of a PVC pipe and drain back into the boiler in the condensate, or so I was told by the engineers at AVC, makers of the Prestige boiler for TT. They also conceded that on a stainless steel boiler the affects were minimal. (define minimal!) Hot Rod. Is this what you were refering to when you refer to "Elephant in the room," or is there another issue I'm not aware of???? WW

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JimH

ss for sealed combustion?

Hi, I'm considering installing a vitodens, and I'd really prefer to do sealed
combustion with SS. Do they do this in Europe?

-JimH

Steve Ebels_3

A BIG Attaboy for ya ME

That's what should have been in there in the first place!!!! Using a standard efficiency appliance on an ideal condensing load like that should be cause for disbarment from something. Come to think of it, mandatory use of condensing boilers for snow melt applications should be in a national energy code or something.

[Deleted User]

Correct... Radon fan. (NM)

ME

[Deleted User]

Had the conversation with the HO and GC...

IF the GC had hired me to do the job in the first place (in fairness, he didn't know me at the time of construction) we wouldn't be having this conversation...

And I wouldn't have wasted so much time on this project trying to make it work...

The GC STILL hasn't learned his lesson. Decided I'm too expensive for his tastes...

Some peoples kids, I'm tellin' ya.

Thanks for the kudos Steve.

Welcome to Winter (finally).

ME

Steve Ebels_3

Most GC's .........

Shouldn't be placed in charge of other people's money.They tend to think it's theirs instead of the customers. I hope she goes after his hide and the HVAC guy.

Jeff Lawrence_25

Thanks.

N/M

Alan(OnVacationInOregon)Forbes

Time to be

philosophical, Mark. You can only do the best you can to show them the way, but sometimes money is more powerful than reason.

[Deleted User]

Typical GC...

Doing business with NO idea of profitability, cutting corners after the fact, trying to make a living...

The list of GC's I will willingly work for just got shorter:-) And it was not very long to begin with...

ME

flanger

Scary ME,
As far as homeowner protection, I just added my first CO detector last weekend and read that the UL standard requires that, at a minimum, the alarm must sound after 15 minutes of readings > 400ppm ( after 50 minutes of > 150ppm and after 240 min of > 70ppm). Exposure of 400ppm can be lethal in 2 hours. I got spooked when I read that you can still die of asphyxiation 12-14 hours after moving to fresh air after CO poisoning - that would suck. (so that's why they stick those people in the hyperbaric chambers). I also read that CO detectors only have a typical lifespan of 7 years.

Interestingly, the night after I installed mine I got a call at my poker game that the "stupid new alarm" was ringing - so I headed home to find a peak reading of 95 (wife, dog, and bird were fine). So the alarm does work, even if it's only from car exhaust getting in the house. After clearing the alarm, the reading came down to zero almost immediatly, and the new detector location seems to have solved the garage fumes false alarms.