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An installation gone wrong, need opinions...

Dave_4
Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
Don, I will be sure to snap a photo, but the largest heating company in south NY was a authorized Weil Mclane dealer and service shop, thats what influenced my opinion. To be fair the engineer that first came to my house answered all the questions correctly and he knew how to do an accurate EDR which was better than most of the other fools I had come here who didn't even know how to size the boiler correctly. Unfortunately their installation and service department are not up to snuff.

Comments

  • Jim_64
    Jim_64 Member Posts: 253


    I live in lower Westchester NY and in 2005 I had a new Weil Mclane EG-55 (steam) and Gold Plus 60 installed by "the largest heating company in south NY". These units replaced an old Smith Mills gas converted boiler and gas fired hot water heater. All told I paid ten thousand dollars for the install. All seemed well until the first cold season when I started experiencing banging and generally uneven cooling throughout the house. On top of that my heating bill was the same or greater than when I had the 60 year old converted boiler. I knew something was wrong, and after lots of research on this board and some reading of my boiler install manual i began finding discrepancies in what the install manual called for and the way in which the boiler and indirect heater were piped. It also became obvious that the installer had no idea what he was doing.

    The first problem i encountered was loud banging which was never an issue before. At first i thought it was the lack of insulation on my mains, which I promptly corrected. The banging continued as did the high energy bills. I then began checking the boiler itself and found the water to be very dirty. Basically the installer didn't clean the returns before installing the new boiler! All the old mud had accumulated in the new boiler and consequently clogged my syphon tube / pressuretrol. As I read the Boiler manual it became obvious that the installer did not follow directions, for example, he installed the pressuretrol at the skim tapping. I have one hot water loop which services a radiator in my family room. He also used this loop to heat the indirect heater. The manual states that the water should be drawn from below the water line. Te circulator they are using is no where near the 13 GPM that is called for, no wonder i have such a crappy recovery rate.

    At this time i am not sure what my recourse is, the company that installed the equipment is horrible in customer service, and when i brought up the incorrect piping they said "don't worry" it's how we do it. I supposedly have a 2 year warranty on work performed by them. I can't see how Weil Mclane allows this company to sell and install their product. I spent the last 2 weeks flushing my boiler and I think i have he water quality issue under control, my surging etc has stopped. I cleaned the syphon and am relocating it to the correct tapping. I am thinking of calling Weil Mclane and lodging a complaint against this reseller based in the Bronx. Any suggestions would be appreciated..
  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    Can you post photos?

    For a fair and informed critique, photos can get you specifics as to the near-boiler piping and other details.

    You have a slew of issues but a punchlist is hard to ignore.

    So, you want with "the largest heating company in south NY". I do not know or care to know who they are, but did you really fall for "size matters"? :)
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
    pics

    its somewhat dirty due to the fact that I have been skimming and flushing the boiler
  • I'm a Weil McLain installer

    I'm a Weil Mclain installer and I don't get paid for saying this... You are right if the Weil Mclain instructons aren't followed, you will have plms and as well with other boilers... Pls do post some pixs and stay on the installer's comapany butts to get this resolved...
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    Martin,

    The funny part is I pointed this out, when it was first installed. They brushed me off, but who can I "tell"? I would hope that Weil Mclane would want their installers and distributors to follow their directions. All I ever get is that "we have been doing these installs forever" etc. Also, isn't ti standard practice to clean out the returns when installing a new boiler, it seems to me like negligence on their part but I'm not sure what recourse I have.
  • Home Depot Employee
    Home Depot Employee Member Posts: 329


    Thats pretty sloppy
    Is that a boiler drain on the wet return?
    If so that should have been left open for a few days to a week for the dirty condensate which is from all the crap stirred up from the install to flush to the drain and not get back to the boiler.
    Also, not a fan of using a hot water loop off of a steam boiler unless it is totally below boiler waterline level such as to a low mounted heat exchanger. Your noises could be the hot water returns with air reacting or flashing with the superheated water or perhaps even steam.

    In addition, the circulater selected is incorrect as it is cast iron and the impellor will either disinigrate in this open system or, the oxygen will attack the impellor and inners and sieze up soon. Should have been fully bronze.
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    The circulator is coming off of a heat exchanger that is inside the boiler and it is a closed loop, it feeds both a hot water radiator and the indirect heater, the pump is definitely underpowered.
  • Home Depot Employee
    Home Depot Employee Member Posts: 329


    OK, then assuming your using the air vent on top of the indirect for air elimination, where is your expansion tank on this closed system?
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    see attached.
  • steven_5
    steven_5 Member Posts: 6


    Unfortunately the recovery rate for the indirect water heater is limited by the tankless coil in the boiler and probably has nothing to do with the pump.
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    Steve the rating for the tankless coil happens to be 8 GPM and the Indirect heater wants 13 GPM, so you're certainly right. Thats why Weil Mclane specifies that you take boiler water from below the water line and use a 13 GPM bronze pump. I took issue with the comany that installed it originally but i was brushed off.
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    That boiler is only 2 years old!?!?!


    Why is the water green?

    It's piped wrong, that flue pipe is going to fall off and you'll get a house-load of Carbon Monoxide AND they bushed the skim tap down to accomodate the pig tail assembly.

    How have you been skimmimng the boiler??

    You can't blame W-M for this one. That is PURE installer error. W-M does some of the best steam training in the industry, but W-M engineering ends when the rpoduct leaves the plant. After that, it's up to the installer to at least have a clue about how things work.

    Why is the water green?

    Mark H

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  • A few things

    Although the recovery rate might be less than connecting the Weil Plus directly to the boiler water , I like having the indirect isolated from the steam side by a coil ( like yours is ) . This way you know the inside of the Plus will be free of the cruddy condensate thats mucking up the boiler right now . Did they happen to prioritize the indirect ?

    I checked the specs on the EG-55 . Although they did pipe the steam header nicely ( they even used the 2nd tapping , which is an option for this size ) , the instructions call for a 3 inch boiler riser and header . And that is a minimum . What they used is 2 inch all the way .

    Another thing - is that a 3/4 inch black steel coupling before the relief valve on the indirect ? If it is , that has to be changed . Eventually it'll corrode and clog up the relief valve .

    And the fluepipe , the length that connects to the boiler . What happened there ? Somethin ain't right with that piece .

    Good luck dealing with the company . Please let us know how it turns out .
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,188
    Insist...

    Call the manufacturer's rep to come look at the job. They should accommodate this request and specify what was done incorrectly.

    Then hammer the installer to make things right.

    The manufacturer's rep may be helpful in pressuring the installer to correct this mess.

    Assuming that the proper permits were pulled for the job and inspections made, the local plumbing board may also come to your aid, though this depends on the inspector and the local custom.

    Armed with the installation manual and the manufacturer's representative's recommendations, you can probably recover at least part of your money in small claims court.

    Why is the water green?

    LB Ed
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
    GREEN !!!!

    WOW !!! That was my first thought when I saw the green...

    BAD ! BAD ! BAD ! in a heating system.

    DANGER! DANGER! WIL ROBINSON ,,, DANGER !!!!
  • Fred Harwood_2
    Fred Harwood_2 Member Posts: 195
    Gone Wrong?

    Why is the boiler water green?????
  • Steven Gronski
    Steven Gronski Member Posts: 98
    Its green because...........?

    Maybe its Prestone to keep the steam from freezing and turning into snow in the pipes?

    Hopefully, its some kind of cleaning solution........




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  • brucewo1b
    brucewo1b Member Posts: 638
    Steve is on the money

    I know that KEK comes with a small packet of powder and if it turns the sample water red reclean and if it turns its green suposedly its clean, I also know that if you put it in a five gallon bucket it will turn 1/2 mile of snow melt water on the side of the road Koolaide green.
  • Ed N.Y.C.
    Ed N.Y.C. Member Posts: 73
    Green Water

    Surgemaster has been added. Hope this helps ED
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    the water is green because i picked up some sodium carbonate which turns the water green, the stuff i used is called steam clean, it supposed to clean the boiler and equalize the PH
  • Fred Harwood_2
    Fred Harwood_2 Member Posts: 195
    Surgemaster

    But the Surgemaster instructions succinctly say, after successful treatment as indicated by the color, "drain the boiler" (and presumably refill with fresh, clean, water to about the middle of the glass).

  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    He is exactly right, how long should i keep this soultion in the boiler?
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    Actually its called steam clean and it doesn't say to remove the solution, but i can always drian and flush it tonight
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    I believe the indirect is prioritized,and yes the 3/4 inch coupling is indeed black steel. I agree the flue pipe piping is pathetic.
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    How


    are you skimming the boiler?

    I do not see a tap anywhere.

    Also, how are you draining the boiler? They plugged the 3/4" drain tap in the block and I do not see a drain at the base of the equalizer.

    That flue pipe needs to be taken care of IMMEDIATELY.

    Mark H

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  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    there is another drain at the return, as far as skimming is concerned i take a piece of rubber hose and skim it from the 1/2" tap(where the pressuretrol should be) above the skim tap. I know its half assed but i had to do something.
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    I feel for ya' guy.


    One thing though. If the drain is on the return, it is BEFORE the hartford loop which will prevent you from ever draining the boiler completely.(Unless you crack the union and spin the 90)

    The header should be re-piped so that the equlizer acts as a header drip. As it is now, condensdate can be blown into the system and cause hammering.

    Mark H

    P.S. PLEASE get that flue pipe taken care of ASAP.



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  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    Mark thanks for your concern, its kinda scarey that its been like that for almost 2 years, I am going to temporarily tape the joint with some type of high temp tape. I am also going to call weil mclain tomorrow and get a rep here so that I have some backup for my claim(s).
  • dmy hvac
    dmy hvac Member Posts: 33
    bad install

    you should turn them in to the better business burea or how ever you spell that
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,226
    The big company...

    ..is an HVAC company, isn't it?

    Also, how do rubber gaskets hold up to sodium bicarbonate?
    You might want to get rid of that before the rep gets to your house.


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  • Al Corelli_2
    Al Corelli_2 Member Posts: 395
    What a shame.

    If you need someone local to assist you, we are located right in Larchmont. We can fix your incorrectly installed system. 3 solid generations of steam heat experience.

    Good luck with your present company. If it is who I think they are, your patience will surely be tested.


    Al Corelli
    Mike Fisher Plumbing & Heating
    914-833-9114 Office
    914-804-2234 Cell

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    Al Corelli, NY



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  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    They have it listed in their own documentation as safe for use, petroleum products seem to be the big no-no.
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405


    Al,

    My patience has been tested many times. Their customer service is horrible and they are rude as well, you would think after spending $10,000 they would be polite at the very least.
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