wood steam backup

Kevin O. Pulver

The boiler reads, "capitol winchester" if it makes any difference. Kevin

Kevin O. Pulver

Here

Kevin O. Pulver

Here's the pics

OK guys, Thanks to my dear wife, here are the photos.
There are like 3 of the taller rads and 2 of the shorter ones in this house. Not a real big load I guess?
The boiler looks like it could use an abatement contractor, Yes? He has the original coal/wood grates that he wants to put back in and use this boiler for back up, while adding a newer, more efficient model. Your original answers indicated this was possible with full isolation for both boilers and separate headers, preferably with same level water lines. Any more advice after seeing the photos? He's figuring this boiler to be in the early '20s and original to the house. Do you agree? Is 40% efficient efficiency a good guess? What will new ones do?
Thanks again, Kevin

Steamhead (in transit)

That's a Vapor system!

who made it? I don't recognize those return fittings. We may be looking at an undiscovered species of Vapor here.

Radiator ratings are on pages 110 thru 122 of "E.D.R."

I'd say 40% is about right with an old round boiler converted that way. The new one may cut his gas consumption in half.

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Kevin O. Pulver

Thanks Steamhead,

> who made it? I don't recognize those return

> fittings. We may be looking at an undiscovered

> species of Vapor here.

>

> Radiator ratings are

> on pages 110 thru 122 of "E.D.R."

>

> I'd say 40%

> is about right with an old round boiler converted

> that way. The new one may cut his gas consumption

> in half.

>

> _A

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> 367&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Kevin O. Pulver

Thanks Steamhead,

Now you're starting to get me excited! I will have to call the man and ask him for more information. It's too far to just drive over. I'm not sure if I have any more pics that might explain more. I'll post them if I do.
Thanks again, Kevin

Ericjeeper

There should be two of them

I thought Noah had two of everything on the ark?. Just kidding.. That seems so inefficient..

Kevin O. Pulver

\"CORNELL\"? Pix

Sorry if these are HUUUGE. If they work, you guys will be seeing history... because I posted them myself!
It looks like they are Cornell. Is that an oddity Steamhead? Any other comments from anyone? Rest assured you'll sound brilliant to me. In the interest of total disclosure, I've heard about vapor systems, (and vacuum) but I don't even know what one is. (I can identify an old vacuum pump) Back to "the Lost Art", (and I also have "EDR" and "a pocketful" also. What better start could I have?) Kevin

Kevin O. Pulver

I'm slowly learning...

It's vapor because we see the fancy lever handles and lack of steam traps right?
So what I have here is a, "Cornell Vapor System" correct?
I assume any steam system is more common in the older settlements of the country like the East, and more rare out in Nebraska, am I right? I don't see Cornell in Dr. Dan's red DMDR (dead men's desk reference)(also comes in pink!)
So it appears I have a relatively unique opportunity to not only "SAVE THE RADIATORS", but also to save the STEAM. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! We can also save the old boiler for back-up and restore it to its coal burning ability. (grates are still in the basement)The owner likes this and all this is his idea.
As I said before, my awareness of my ignorance can work FOR me, because I respect the complexity of these steam systems, and I know where to come for the answers! Thanks again guys, this will possibly happen later this summer, and will involve careful planning beforehand. Any advice much appreciated. Kevin

Dave_4

flues?

How is he going to address the flue issue having two boilers, with one being a solid fuel unit?

Dave Stroman

Show us a pic of the radiator traps and any vents or traps in the basement.

I like Tim's idea of using a powerpile system. Why fool around with 2 boilers and 2 different fuels. All you are trying to do is overcome a powder outage. Install a new boiler that does not even need powder to operate. Heck, you could even change that existing boiler to a powerpile system if you wanted.

Dave in Denver

Steamhead (in transit)

Kevin, we need close-up pics of the rad return fittings

they do the job of keeping the steam out of the dry return. From their shape I'd guess they work using expansion posts.

Cornell doesn't appear in any of my references either. You have unearthed a rare Vapor system that absolutely must be restored and documented.

You say it's in Nebraska? What part? Cornell may have been a strictly local or regional manufacturer, like Hutchison, Mouat or VECO.

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Paul Rohrs_5

Steam

I'm 2-1/2 hrs East of Kevin and I know less about steam than Kevin.

Are all 2-pipe steam systems considered "Vapor Systems"?

Other than the obvious 2nd pipe dedicated for return, what are the other differences?

Paul

Steamhead (in transit)

Most residential 2-pipe systems

were Vapor. But there are exceptions.

The defining characteristics are: 1- the system piping is sized to permit operation at 8 ounces or less on the coldest day of the year, 2- air from the radiators is routed thru "dry returns" (mounted overhead in the basement) to a central venting point, and 3- there is some method of keeping steam out of the dry return. This can be traps, water seals (Broomell, VECO, Mouat etc), check valves (Donnelly, Kriebel) or inlet orifices coupled with a low-pressure control like a Vaporstat. Some systems used a combination of several such methods (O-E, Richardson).

The most common exception is the 2-pipe air-vent system, where each radiator has a valved return as well as supply connection and an air vent. In this system the dry returns do not carry air from the rads. This system was supposed to be obsolete in 1905 or so but I've seen examples as recent as the 1930s.

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Kevin O. Pulver

Return Pix CLOSEUP

Steamhead, this is the only picture I have of return piping.
My wife helped me blow it up. So what do we have in there? According to Dan, there is SOMETHING in there... right!?
This is in a rural area, two or three hours West of Omaha, and the house was built in the very early 20's according to the owner. The owner would like to keep the old boiler functional for several reasons:
#1 He and his wife appreciate the old system.
#2 They like the idea of being able to burn wood or coal to save on fuel costs.
#3 They like the idea of a back-up fuel source in case of power outage. The powerpile might be a good idea. That's another thing I'm ignorant of. OF course, they would like a newer gas steam boiler for efficiency. THanks for any advice and recommendations. Kevin

Bill Nye_2

Unca Pete

Kevin , Pete has a point. You don't want a solid fuel appliance and a gas appliance vented in the same flue. You may be able to get the new gas boiler with direct vent ? I don't know for sure if they make them for gas steam , {I never needed one}

The powerpile is a millivolt control with a pilot and a thermocouple or really a powerpile generator. It works w/o electricity. You could vent both into the common flue maybe if you went this way.

I am an oilman so take all my commnents lightly, I'm not a gas expert.

Steamhead (in transit)

I have NEVER seen anything like that

does it say Cornell also? I can't tell from the photo. But it looks like someone has taken that plug out sometime.

When will you be working on this? I see Southwest does fly from Baltimore to Omaha.............

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Rich Kontny_3

Coal Maybe Wood No

Unless the owner wants to sleep alongside this boiler I don't see how he could maintain enough heat with wood to produce enough steam to make this worth while.

Solid fuel sources with coal of course retain heat longer and I am sure that is what this boiler was originally designed for.

Insurance concerns should be checked first as almost all insurance companies need to know if your woodburning systems are up to code otherwise a claim may be denied.

This is really a great museum piece but I would retire it and take it out if it were mine.

Rich K.

Kevin O. Pulver

Uh Oh

Steamhead,
I appreciate your input, but I don't know whether to be elated or horrified that this is such a rare beast that you've never even seen one. I must be mad to dare think of touching it. Neither can I tell from the picture, but I don't THINK it says Cornell. I will call the owner tomorrow and have him look... at that one and the others.
I'll be back! Thanks. Kevin

Steamhead (in transit)

Kevin, you should be elated

you've discovered a Vapor system that no one on the Wall has seen yet. And I'm sure we can figure out how that return fitting works.

So when are you going to do the work? Can't be in the second half of June, cause The Lovely Naoko and I are going to Japan then.....

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Kevin O. Pulver

I'm honored Steamhead...

> you've discovered a Vapor system that no one on

> the Wall has seen yet. And I'm sure we can figure

> out how that return fitting works.

>

> So when

> are you going to do the work? Can't be in the

> second half of June, cause The Lovely Naoko and I

> are going to Japan then.....

>

> _A

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> 367&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_



To have uncovered something unusual and having generated so much interest. I love all old stuff, so this is something I am really intrigued by.
Nothing definite as far as time. All this is exploratory. The owner knows he's blowing a lot of money up the chimney, but knows replacement won't be cheap either. He DOES already appreciate the system for what it is, (his wife does also, maybe more) but he doesn't know just HOW unusual it may be. I've been staying up late at night, poring over "The Lost Art" getting more and more intimidated. Has anyone ever considered that maybe Dan is the long lost brother of Steven King or maybe a nephew of Alfred Hitchcock? Don't worry, I'm not about to touch the system without a thorough examination of every inch of pipe and a complete piping plan. Proverbs says that there is safety in a multitude of counselors. In the case of steam, I'll have to settle for a few, very experienced ones. I'll start a new thread if I get any more photos or information. Otherwise, any recommended brands for preliminary boiler pricing would be appreciated. Thanks again, Kevin

Kevin O. Pulver

Don't worry Steamhead

I'm not about to touch this thing without a thorough investigation and complete piping plan beforehand!
I've been staying up late, poring over "The Lost Art".
It's terrifying. Has anyone considered that maybe Dan is the long lost brother of Steven King or possibly a nephew of Alfred Hitchcock? The owners both appreciate this system for what it is, but don't have any idea yet just how unusual it may be. It's apparently working fine as far as they know, but maybe not as it should, they keep it turned way down to save gas.
They know they're blowing a lot of dollars out the chimney, but know a replacement boilrt won't be cheap either. Any recommendations of brands for preliminary pricing would be appreciated.
If I get any more pictures or information, I'll start a new thread. I can be reached privately at pulverk@alltel.net
Thanks again, Kevin

Christian Egli_2

What a fascinating find you’ve made Kevin

With steam systems being so robust, and if no one ever messed up this system in the past, you should be all set to go and do nothing. If it ain’t broke...

Beyond boiler headaches, the only things that bite in two pipe systems are first, the air hole where air has to be able to come out and secondly, the radiator traps where steam has to be stopped.

You know you’ve got all of us drooling over what will be visible inside those traps. No matter what, testing trap operation is necessary and easy. These traps seem fully adjustable and repairable.

For the air hole, could I please ask a picture of where the return pipe collects before it dips straight down to floor level, at that cascading point, there should be a box like thing, the air eliminator (it’s nothing but an open hole that only closes on flooding water - it does not close on steam) A picture of the air eliminator would be helpful and fascinating.

If there is no air eliminator, then look for any kind of hole where air can simply blow out of the returns. (These holes are often plugged during ill meaning repairs, so look for plugs or one pipe air vents too).

But with any luck, there might even be an alternating trap somewhere there, those are simply pumpless condensate pumps that look like a cast iron ham.

Thanks for sharing your find.

Kevin O. Pulver

No Spam Christian,

And no ham either. Not as far as I could tell anyway.
I'd remembered the alternating trap thingy from the lost art, and I'm sure I'd have noticed such an impressive part of the piping. I'll get back when I get a chance and take a stepladder, flashlight, and camera and look it over real good. It's not such a big system I guess with only like 5 rads.
I'll try to note the type of things you are asking about. If I'm real brave, there's no reason I couldn't carefully open the return fitting and photograph the innards is there? (Assuming it's not steaming of course.)I've done a lot of mechanic work, it can't be much worse than a carburetor or automatic transmission can it? (other than having no book with pictures on this thing!)
I appreciate your input. I need all the help I can get.
I won't mess it up guys!

Christian Egli_2

Aah, but you’ve got the gravy

The gadget looks a lot like the OE steam trap / valve of figures 54, 55 on page 265 of the Lost Art. There might be a ball inside it that will want to roll down the return pipe, so be careful when opening it up.

Do you have any reason to suspect a bad trap? Open that one first.

Depending on what air exhaust hole you find on the return, you’ll know to look for a real steam stopping radiator trap or simply a check valve (which the mystery trap may still prove to be).

Then set the camera on close up and click away.

Kevin O. Pulver

That might be close to what we've got

> The gadget looks a lot like the OE steam trap /

> valve of figures 54, 55 on page 265 of the Lost

> Art. There might be a ball inside it that will

> want to roll down the return pipe, so be careful

> when opening it up.

>

> Do you have any reason to

> suspect a bad trap? Open that one

> first.

>

> Depending on what air exhaust hole you

> find on the return, you’ll know to look for a

> real steam stopping radiator trap or simply a

> check valve (which the mystery trap may still

> prove to be).

>

> Then set the camera on close up

> and click away.



I guess there's only one way to find out...
No reason to suspect any bad ones. Just wanting a more efficient boiler. We'd better understand it thorougly before we mess with it huh? I'll post any further findings, but it might be a month or two before I get back there. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again guys. Kevin