Buderus Install Blues

Mad Dog_2

Mad Dog

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Rich Ferris

Buderus Install getting my goat

Hey Guys,
We put a Buderus G115-28 with Riello and Indirect in a Customers house in Sept. I had to go back and remove the baffles after is started condensing in the chimney. Actually saw rusty water outside of the chimney. When we put it in the Chimney liner looked O.K. and size was 8*8 square. When I returned on that visit I adjusted to 0-T smoke 12% Co2 350 stack and -.03 draft (no draft regulator) Got a call yesterday. The weather is damp and rainy and the rusty water is coming in again per the customer. I'm thinking it's the washing effect. The chimney has no cap. I advised the owner to call a Chimney Guy that did some work in my neighborhood that does a nice job and good reputation in this area. The Owner calls a friend and he sends his chimney guy out. First thing out of his mouth was the liner is too small. We'll he said he could put a metal liner in for the guy for $$$. Now the property owner bypasses me and calls the (Parent Oil Co.) Owner that I did the install for. They call me and now I'm wondering what have you guys seen out there to cause this. The chimney guy that said the lining is too small also said there were flashing issues and I'm trying to say that the chimney is sweating and because it's now a Cold start configuration that now the usuall stand by venting is not drying out the inside of the chimney when it's high humidity. looking for some answers. By the way the Property owner requested this set up and I think Buderus is a Great Boiler but i'm getting squeezed here. The install was inspected and approved but that really does't mean much except that if it burns the house down my insurance co. may help in the fight.

Thanks,

Rich

Ray Landry_3

Rich, it sounds like you have covered all of your bases. There's no way that liner is too small, if anything it's too large. Check the NFPA guideline but I believe you can get away with a 5 x 8 terra cotta liner with an average sized chimney (25') with a 115/28 (5" breech) if I recall an install I did recently and had to look it up. It sounds as though you have a sooty liner from the boiler drafting improperly at start up before the baffles where removed. What where your stack results prior to the baffles being removed? How is the combustion air handled on this job? How is your pump pressure?

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Rich Ferris

Stack results

Thanks Ray,

Unfortunately I can't find the slip I had but the temp was about 280 F from what I remembered that's why I removed he baffles. The test was done after the install and I didn't do the actual test on this job. The other tech did it but I had recorded a 89% afue on the slip and it should have triggerred my interest but it was at the end of the day and we had some of those last minute leaks from some tough places and I lost focus. That Jinks post from last week. Open basement did calc and plenty of volumn for air.

Ray Landry_3

The oil gremlin...

How long has the boiler been installed for? This sounds like a good application for a 2107 to make it a maintaining boiler! I know that's probably easier said then done. What type of a system is this connected to? Could you be shocking the boiler with lots of cold water to the return thus not allowing the stack temps to climb?

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Rich Ferris

Not alot of volumn

Ray,

The system is a hydronic baseboard. Less than 4 months install (3) 3/4 zones with z.v.'s the indirect on its own circuit with 1" and 009 circ. Shouldn't really be a water shocking issue. 2 people in the house, Cape Style maybe 1600 sqft. I sized it for a possible addition in the future. 2107 is in use here. Only seems to happen when it's high humidity so I don't really think it's boiler directly related.

Thanks, Rich

David Sutton_6

Other tech?? ;-).....

Saggs

Rich, I put a 115-28 w/ a riello in my own house into an 8x8 tile lined chimney(on the outside wall of my house). Had an old thermopride furnace there b4. That chimney was draining what looked like tea down the inside wall. I then installed a 5" SS liner and put the baffles back in. I run about a 300 deg stack and 86-87% eff. If we're installing any of the low stack temp boilers these days we usually end up installing a chimney liner at the same time. Most of these old chimneys are way too big and will cause the flue gas to condensate b4 exiting. This causes the "soot tea" to rain down. I think you just have a problem w/ a cold chimney and condensation. Good luck.

kevin coppinger_4

Tile liner...

at 8x8 is definately not undersized...other "mason" has no idea what he is talking about...as Ray said probably oversized...what was in there before?
They did not have this problem before because the old boiler had heat flowing up the chimney before and that hot air flow kept the rain from flowing down the chimney...is this an inside chimney, that is most inside the house...or is it on the gable end of the house?
A cap on the chimney would probably help but I would do the SS liner...but there again it is not my money....
I had this problem w/ one on the chimneys on my place and just elected to cap it off and not use it...

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Rich Ferris

Trying to keep unnamed nameless

Trying to protect the innocent and not incriminate unwiilingly

Rich Ferris

That's exactly what it sounds like

Saggs,

Thanks for the reply I think you nailed it. I talked to someone else and I think the liner is in order but I have to sell it to the customer that it's not the boiler or my fault for this.

Rich

Rich Ferris

Kevin,

> at 8x8 is definately not undersized...other

> "mason" has no idea what he is talking about...as

> Ray said probably oversized...what was in there

> before? They did not have this problem before

> because the old boiler had heat flowing up the

> chimney before and that hot air flow kept the

> rain from flowing down the chimney...is this an

> inside chimney, that is most inside the

> house...or is it on the gable end of the house?

> A cap on the chimney would probably help but I

> would do the SS liner...but there again it is not

> my money.... I had this problem w/ one on the

> chimneys on my place and just elected to cap it

> off and not use it...

>

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> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

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Rich Ferris

Kevin,

> at 8x8 is definately not undersized...other

> "mason" has no idea what he is talking about...as

> Ray said probably oversized...what was in there

> before? They did not have this problem before

> because the old boiler had heat flowing up the

> chimney before and that hot air flow kept the

> rain from flowing down the chimney...is this an

> inside chimney, that is most inside the

> house...or is it on the gable end of the house?

> A cap on the chimney would probably help but I

> would do the SS liner...but there again it is not

> my money.... I had this problem w/ one on the

> chimneys on my place and just elected to cap it

> off and not use it...

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 323&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Rich Ferris

It's an outside chimney

Outside, North Side, not good !!! Repco with d.c. before running at 650 stack. Thanks

Rich

Todd_18

Chimney liner

Did you insulate around the chimney liner? I would check the liner size with the liner co itself. Zflex has a great slide chart that I have used and you would be surprised to see that they even show 4" liners on oil if the parameters are right(height/lateral/gph/efficiency). I think too big a liner will only add to the problem. I thought the stack temp needed to be at least 325 deg NET to keep it from raining in the chimney.

psd_3

Line the chimney

Based on experience with the same configuration, I would recommend lining the chimney with a SS liner (preferably AL29-4C). I think that Buderus is still specifying a 5" liner for this setup, but check with Joe.

While the 2107 is a great control for fuel savings, I don't think that is will help with the condensation problem in the chimney. Actually with outdoor reset control, the boiler core will start and run cooler which if anything would decrease the flue temp and increase the potential for condensation in the chimney. I use the 2107 and swear by it, but am very glad to have a SS liner with a good rain cap.

My stack temp runs about 350F at steady state operating conditions ... which usually occurs after about 4-5 minutes of run time.

S Ebels

Rich

We install a stainless liner as a standard operating procedure on every Buderus and Viessmann boiler. Just too many chimney problems down the road with the efficiency that these boilers run at. When we first started using those brands we plugged them into chimney's that had good looking clay liners and quickly found out that was a no-no. One of these boilers will destroy almost any chimney other than one that's lined with stainless steel. I have a feeling that the Burnham MPO will be in the same league

EBEBRATT-Ed

I agree with Todd I think your stack temp is too low at 280. 340 is more like it. What does Buderus say about this?? Are you underfired? Can you fire it higher temporally and see if the problem goes away????????

ED

Paul Pollets

Insulated liner

Install a 5" insulated SS liner and the condensation problem will disappear. An outdoor reset control would also help.

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Rich Ferris

Flue temp is over 325

The Flue temp is at 350 for about a month now. Still get excessice condensation when it's foggy or has high humidity. There is no z-flex liner now just a clay 8 * 8. So I know what I'll be doing soon. Thanks, Rich

Rich Ferris

It's firing over 340

It's been over 340 for about a month and it still condenses when conditions are damp. Thanks Rich

joel_19

liners

We recomend a liner on every boiler. I see plenty of burnhams that condense on tall chimneys as well as the germans. i think masonary chimneys should have liners by code. i'm predicting big lawsuites in the next few years against the Mcmansion contractors as these chimneys start to fall apart.

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joel_19

liners

We recomend a liner on every boiler. I see plenty of burnhams that condense on tall chimneys as well as the germans. i think masonary chimneys should have liners by code. i'm predicting big lawsuites in the next few years against the Mcmansion contractors as these chimneys start to fall apart.

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Singh_5

Speaking of liners

Anyone know of, or heard of the method where you would slide
a bladder down the chimney of appropiate size. Inflate it. Then pour a "crete"
type product down. Let it cure, then deflate bladder.
Presto, a new round chimney!

psd_3

Yes ... but why?

Today's efficient heating systems produce condensation which is highly corrosive. Why would one want to use materials that at suseptable to corrosive deterioration when sliding a good SS liner (AL29-4C, 316L or 316Ti) down would produce superior results over the long run. Insulating the SS liner with an appropriate pour down mix would improve results for an outside chimney.

Singh_5

Sid

"Insulating the SS liner with an appropriate pour down mix would improve results for an outside chimney"

You answred your own question. I agree SS liners way to go.
Just curious , any one seen it done or had good results?

Googled , this is one I came up with.

http://www.solidflue.com/

Chris_65

I don't know how a poured crete chimney would handle low flue gas temps. I beleive its brand name is "supaflue" But I think it is ment for chimneys that are unlined and in need of some repair as it would help with the stucture integrity. If the brick is too far gone I guess you could have a blow out. Probably a lot more expensive as well, Just my 2 cents

brucewo1b

Singh

We had a company that did that around here for many years, finally went out of bussiness when the liners started crumbling.

Constantin

There are several competitors out there...

Way back when we were remodling around here, I found several systems: Supaflu, Gold, Solidflue, Arens, etc. All looked promising until we got a quote and compared the cost to building a new chimney from scratch. In the end, we built a new 40' masonary chimney with 3 flues consisting of smoothwalled stainless liner + insulation for about the same money as one of these local flue liners wanted... which seemed nuts at the time.

That said, our neighbors hired one local company to retrofit 3 flues across two chimney's because they did not have the luxury of a gut job like we did (i.e. 100% access). The two guys that installed the liners, the flue material (concrete?), etc. worked for about two weeks to get the job done. In other words, retrofitting a flue liner with a concrete lining is not inexpensive for a reason.

psd_3

Oh ... but it was a different question

You suggested a process to rebuild/repair a masonary "crete" lined chimney ... with no mention of a SS liner to protect against corrosion.

I suggested a process where the SS liner is inserted first and then an insulating mix is poured around the liner ... no bladder, no inflating, no deflating. This is a standard practice in the chimney business today and any good sweep knows about the best materials and methodology to use for good results.

If the objective is to structurally repair a deteriorating chimney for use with non condensing flue gases, then the "crete" approach may suffice.

If the objective is to protect a structurally sound masonary chimney from the corrosive action of condensing flue gases, then the SS liner with or without insultation is necessary. The average chimney can be lined and insulated in 4-6 hrs provided Murphy isn't lurking around.

If the objective is to repair and then protect, well then perhaps your need a combination of both.

See

ProTech Systems ... a.k.a Ventinox for TherMix at
http://www.protechinfo.com/insulation.html

Or see Homesavers insulation mix at:
http://www.hartshearth.com/

Mark Hunt

Curious Sid


Is SS indestructable?

Are SS liners impervious to acidic condensation?

Mark H

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psd_3

Mark, it depends ...

It depends on which grade of SS alloy is used ...

AL29-4C is most highly recommended for gas/oil applications where condensing flue gases are likely. 316L could suffice for many oil applications too.

If you have some time for reading, I would recommend the following material:

http://www.protechinfo.com/pdf/1016 (10-00).pdf

http://www.protechinfo.com/pdf/1039.pdf

http://www.protechinfo.com/pdf/1153.pdf

Singh_5

Sid

I did not suggest anything,

Just wanted to know if any one had experience with that method.
No mention of liner.
Regardless, still may be useful for a fireplace.

Thank You Bruce and Constantine.

Jim_109

Buderus Install

Hi Rich,

Please keep me posted with your results. I am considering installing a Buderus and Indirect in my home. I also have an unlined chimney installed in the center of my 85 year old home.

What do you think about direct vent boilers?

How does one know what type/quality of SS lining one is getting? I noticed in some of the reposnses you received various types were mentioned.

THANKS! Jim

Jim_109

Buderus Install

Hi Rich,

Please keep me posted with your results. I am considering installing a Buderus and Indirect in my home. I also have an unlined chimney installed in the center of my 85 year old home.

What do you think about direct vent boilers?

How does one know what type/quality of SS lining one is getting? I noticed in some of the reposnses you received various types were mentioned.

THANKS! Jim

kevin coppinger_4

line the chimney....

the direct vents are so so....you will pay about the same w/ the extra materials and the labor involved....do the chimney liner....kpc

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[Deleted User]

Temporary fix.........

What I know about oil, you could fit in your eye and not blink.

However, having had some considerable experience with the same boiler on gas, I believe there is a set of segmented baffles front and center of the flue gas passge ways that can be removed, completely, or if broken at segmentation line, partially. This will raise the flue gas temps even quicker, and once the liner is installed, these baffles can be reinserted to change the flue gas path to your original configuration.

Not a long term suggestion by any means, but confuscious say, best time to fick reaky loof is when sun is shining...

May cut down on the amount of stack tea seen, but at the expense of additional oil consumption.

ME

Rich Ferris

Modified the set up

Jim,

I went back yesturday and removed a flue gas block plate. This bought the stack temperature form 320 F to 385-390 after I adjusted the air a little to get 11 Co2. It still is at 87 AFUE and with the indirect and outdoor reset it will propably use the same amount of oil. This chimney did have a tile liner and unfortunately on the North and Outside chimney. Bad combo. I'll probably have to put a steel liner in anyways if this does't eliminate the condensation.