loss of circulation

Will Merryman

and set up to pump away as per instructions here and in Dans book.I have a problem with what I call zone 1. Zone 1 is on the left and it is a (new )007-F5 IFC pumping thru 1/2" PAP approx 225'. Zone 2 is a (new) 007-F5 with inline flow check on a 1 1/4" mono flow loop.<BR>
The problem seems to stem from zone 2 circulating while zone 1 is not. It is my theory that the zone 2 circ. is causing a drop in the water to the zone 1 circ.After zone 2 is done and 1 comes on there is no circulation in 1.The circulator makes some noise as it is starved for water(not a good thing) The way I fix this is to shut down boiler and open the drain on the zone 1 return shutoff (ball valve with drain oriented to pump)with valve off so the pressure has to come from the supply.I let it run for a few seconds to prime the zone 1 circulator. Then restore power to boiler and #1 circulator starts up and exhibits a gurgling sound for a few seconds and then hot water is going thru. If zone 2 comes on after zone 1 they both work fine.

Beings as I can't live by the boiler to keep doing this what could I do to remedy this ? I have tried throttling ball valve on the 1 1/4 " pipe and it seems to help but I am concerned about the long term effects on the circ. due to increased head. Any ideas would be appreciated and I offer my thanks in advance. I have gotten many excellent answers here to my ongoing project.

Weezbo

Who did you say piped it for you?

....

i have a few theories of my own, one is that if i have a pump and i supply it with a one inch line it would take that water an use it as its source. if i have more than one pump,then something ought to be done to supply IT with water also.

then there is another thought, that if you introduce Air Into the equasion Before the pump it will continue to draw air any and every time it has a chance.if it is starved for water it will draw air. plain and simple.

you could purge the heck out of the first line until there is little to no air. That would help. and keep the air vent closed while you do that. then gate that zone Off purge the second zone.. fill to 12 psi. turn on both circs..let them run about 3 mins...then open the air vent.... there is definitely something to the idea that whatever goes into a T must come out of the T ...

did i see bronze body circs? then bump the pressure to 20 psi....

Will Merryman

Weezbo

Thanks for your insight into my circulator issue. To answer your first question concerning the piping. I am the one who did it.Ah Ha you say, another misguided do it your selfer.Guilty as charged.


Circs are CI and I feel as the zones are bled plenty as that was my first ASSumption. I ran 5 gals. twice thru the 1/2" PAP and got all the air.The air vent is a schrader type. How does it close ? I figure it is the cap screwed tight as the directions state loosen 1/4 turn for auto venting.
Do you think throttling the valve on the 1 1/4" pipe would limit the flow enough to help eliminate this problem ? And would this lead to a problem with that circ. ? I had another thought about relocating the circ. to the far right to help with the water starvation. Do you think it's worth a shot.


If this is not a fixable situation with the current piping scheme then let me know. Thanks.
Will

Weezbo

Hello again,Will.

here is a slightly similar idea, how about having the return of the radiant hit the headder ahead of the monoflow return...and instead of banging in straight down, pass the headder throw a "Uie or check on the flat ,come back up and tie back into the headder...

another thing that i meant to ask was what are you using for a mixingdevise? and what pressure is the boiler maintaining, do you have a new expansion tank? is that air eliminator working?

as the air eliminator is beneath the riser supply headder i think i can see a way for half the air the splitter didnt get rid of the first go around ....Living in the headder...

Will Merryman

I am not

> here is a slightly similar idea, how about having

> the return of the radiant hit the headder ahead

> of the monoflow return...and instead of banging

> in straight down, pass the headder throw a "Uie

> or check on the flat ,come back up and tie back

> into the headder...

>

> another thing that i meant

> to ask was what are you using for a mixingdevise?

> and what pressure is the boiler maintaining, do

> you have a new expansion tank? is that air

> eliminator working?

>

> as the air eliminator is

> beneath the riser supply headder i think i can

> see a way for half the air the splitter didnt get

> rid of the first go around ....Living in the

> headder...

Will Merryman

I am not

using any mixing as the emitters are ultra fin suspended under floor. The expansion tank is new (per your advice and others on here ),as well as location which is an improvement over the old steel tank that was noisy. Boiler pressure is 19 lbs. Which I am suspicious of as when boiler was shut down and no water pressure it registered about 5 lbs. Pressure in x-tank at rest is 13.5 lbs. Something else gets my attention with the expansion tank. It seems empty when I tap on it, I am not sure how it should sound when charged with water.

The air eliminator wasn't my first choice as it was all that was in stock. I am not sure if it works automatically as advertised. I unscrew the cap every night and depress the schrader valve and get a small amount of air every time.I can now see my piping scheme needs some changing. I will rotate the entrance Tee and go straight in which will raise the scoop and eliminator above the header.Also the future zones I piped in are probably holding some air in the tops of the tees.I am going to try a different air eliminator and put in a short nipple to raise it above the header as a quick fix until it warms up.

I had the entire system drained this fall so most of the air must have came from the new water as I bled everything until heat flowed.Thanks for the tips. I will see if I can solve this problem.

Weezbo

Hello again,

Just got home:) Bankers hours:) comming in early )

i have been extremely tired for quite a while,To day, today i have some energy...

The expansion tank, when it Sounds Full could be, or very likely is ,defunct. sometimes, the air is a real sunof a gun to remove,the automatic fill valve that lets water into the boilers piping, if kaputz, can also break the brain over 'what the heck is happening with my boiler?'.

do not feel bad about having an elusive air problem...many tired professionals Hate it when its not the captive air tank...causing the relief valve to dump water on the floor...after first thinking it might be the coil,...purging the zones,...cleaning the strainer on the fast fill,...checking the boiler temp tri indicator,...some things just are Not Easy....