gas leak question

Jeff Horn

If the guy's workmanship is as sloppy as his work, he caused the leak by not supporting piping when he horsed a connection.

Besides, when opening the gas line to do new piping he should have mercury tested the entire gas system and corrected any leaks.

This is his mess -- and the sloppy work he did do will attest to any inspector that this guy is a slob who is responsible.

Make him fix it, or bring the slob to court.

By the way -- that imported gas valve he installed leaks too and will not pass a mercury test.

Ken L.

gas leak question

While working in the basement the other day (Sorry guys, I was installing CAT5, not steam lines) I noticed the smell of natural gas. I thought that was kind-of strange, so I brought my nose around the main line and began the sniff test. When I came near a T it was time for the bottle of suds test (as opposed to the match test). There is a small leak just at the bottom of a threaded line. OK, there is no such thing as being a "little bit pregnant" and I have to fix this.

I just had the steam boiler replaced last month. The guys had to run a new gas line to the boiler but were nowhere near the connection that is leaking.

My question is - Is this my responsibility as the leak is inside the house?

and/or:

Is it the gas company's responsibility? I mean hey, they have been selling me all that contaminated gas.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

The gas company's responsibility almost always ends at their connection to the meter.

Any gas leak should be immediately repaired!

Brad White

Meter outlet is on your dime.

The utility owns the meter and maybe the outlet gas cock there. You have the rest. I suggest the installer come back given the proximate time to their installation. I would think that they would rather than read about it in the papers

My $0.02

Brad

Chris_82

gas leak?,...

So some gas work was done, sounds like they didn't test after their work??

"I just had the steam boiler replaced last month. The guys had to run a new gas line to the boiler but were nowhere near the connection that is leaking."

Doesn’t matter, sometimes buying into existing piping you frequently buy the whole house, gas wise? How did they test their work, h20 leak tests are generally not code accepted, good to do at a minimum, but not what most codes require. They put in an isolation valve to test only their work...shoddy and more concerned with their reputation than your safety, how do they test upstream from their isolation valve. I see an isolation valve and I usually demand that the whole structure be retested to new work standards. One of my beefs with boiler swaps, don't bother to get a permit for only 12" of new gas pipe, etc,

Your contractor owns this one.

jackchips_2

To many

scenarios to give a definitive answer but I agree that you should call the installer back.

If they didn't take out a permit, they should have but it didn't necessarily require a test if they only disconnected the old unit from the gas cock and did not do any additional piping.

This happens often with simple replacements where you just add a couple of nipples and a union to reconnect.

If they repiped from any section of the old piping they should have retested.

Do not let that leak go.

Jack

Ken L.

Have permit and photos

Jack et al,

The plumbing company got a permit for this work. My inspection is Thursday 1-18-07.

The gas pipes the plumber touched are 10 feet away from the leak. I'm willing to be objective here. The work done was well sealed with pipe dope. His work is not leaking.

My feelings are that the work may not have caused the leak. The house is 50+ years old.

If the general consenus is that this should have been checked and caught, I'll call them back. Should this be a no-charge service and repair?

In general, what are the feelings from the professional plumbers that visit this bulletin board?

A picture is worth 10^3 words. #677 is the gas pipe work that was done -- from the gas main down to the boiler. #680 is 10 feet away at a T.

Thanks!

Ken

Matt Undy

I'm assuming the leak is in the reducing T in the second picture? Is that where the service enters from the meter? Was the meter moved outside from that location indoors at some point? I've certainly seen the gas company's work leak too. Which side of the T is leaking? Did you notice it throughout the basement or only when you got up near the telecom wiring? Had you been up there before the replacement?

The contractor could easily have done it, but if the meter was moved from indoors to outdoors it could have been done at that time too. Contractor should have found and fixed it..but its the risk they take by only leak checking their work if that, now they're into it to repair the leak whatever the source.

When i lived in an apartment the handyman my landlady got to fix a leak in galvanized pipe in my apartment didn't have pipe wrenches, i handed him a pair i had, he selected one and started wrenching on a fitting that was about 60 years old...I called my landlady after she left and suggested she never have him work on that buildign again.

Matt

Ken L.

answers to questions.

All:

I'm assuming the leak is in the reducing T in the second picture? Yes.

Is that where the service enters from the meter? Yes, this is the line from the meter. [Meter - to boiler/HW - to stove] The meter side is not leaking.

Was the meter moved outside from that location indoors at some point? Not in the 6 years I've been here. Most of the gas meters in NJ are installed outside the home. BTW, when I received estimates for hte boiler, I had an oil company come by. By coincidence they used to service this house.

I've certainly seen the gas company's work leak too. Which side of the T is leaking? The side of the T leaking is towards the boiler. If this helps, the bottom of the threads seem to be the source of the leak. (Then again, is natural gas heavier than air?)

Did you notice it throughout the basement or only when you got up near the telecom wiring? I only noticed when I stepped up on a stool to reach the telephone wire. Not noticeable unless I bring my nose towards the line.

Had you been up there before the replacement? Years before but I have no recollection of being so close to the gas line.

Would more pictures be helpful? Is the resolution high enough?

Matt Undy

If its the line toward the boiler, there is a good chance they turned it a little when they changed the riser to the boiler.(either by not backing it up properly or perhaps some sideways forces on the pair of wrenches). A leak from whenever the piece of pipe running outside of the house was replaced (it looks newer then the rest) would most likely be at the joint to the new pipe or at the pipe running in line with the pipe running outside.

Ken L.

guess this belongs to

Matt,

sounds like this is a call back to the company that installed my boiler.

Are you a plumber?

bob young

addional charge

It looks like an existing leak that went undetected at time of boiler installation. the mechanic might have checked the existing piping with a soap solution and it might have been minute and not shown up. apparantly it was slight since no one smelled it. entire line should have been pressure tested with an approved gauge but that would absolutely have incurred an additional fee unless it was discussed beforehand and included in original contract. the local code may not require a pressure test in a case of direct replacement gas appliance. the additional work to repair the leak is an extra in any case. be thankful you caught it before disaster struck. yes i am a lic. plbr.

Matt Undy

I must disclose I am not a plumber. The leak could be existing, but the run toward the boiler also could have been turned if any lateral force was applied in removing the old piping. It would be hard to prove that it was the fault of the contractor. I would expect that the contractor would take care of it to keep the customer happy because there is a reasonable possibility that it was their fault but I expect a lot out of contractors. (actually I would just take it apart and re-fit it with new dope but I wouldn't recommend you do that, especially given that it is a rather large job given the location of the leak).

I could argue either side here. Anyone else have an opinion? Joint could have been loose though could have been turned even if properly tightened..

Matt

Steamhead (in transit)

Ken, when we work on gas piping

we do a "paper test" with all pilot lights turned off, before shutting off the gas at the meter. For those not familiar, in this test you attach a piece of paper to the face of the 1/2-cubic-foot dial on the meter parallel to the hand on the dial and wait 25 minutes or so to see if the hand moves. If it doesn't, the pipes aren't leaking. If it moves, start sniffing.

After we finish, we run the test again. We don't leave the job until we get a good test on the piping.

The AHJ in your area may require that a mercury or water column test be used instead of a paper test.

From the looks of it, the boiler installers may have disturbed an iffy joint at that tee. Call them back and have them fix it. Also, if the gas valve Jeff mentioned is not AGA-approved, have them replace it with one that is.

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Ken L.

callback

Is the callback & additional gas line work considered part of the original
estimate to replace the boiler?

jackchips_2

Ken,

why not just call them and see what response you get.

A reputable company should repair it at no or minimal cost.

Jack

Chris_82

Two sides?

This isn't a two sided argument. As all experienced and competent plumbers who go thru this on a daily basis will attest...you simply own all the piping in a structure if you play with any of it period. No argument or discussion. If a homeowners piping is suspect and in all instances reputable, permit pulling, and insured companies inform in advance of any potential substandard work and/or leaks will be the homeowner’s responsibility regardless of distance or location, or how small any gas job is, or how old existing gas piping is. It is simply irresponsible to say we only touched a small amount of piping near the boiler, so "pulling a permit wasn’t necessary." When you hear individuals say a permit wasn’t necessary with gas work you pretty much can be assured they do not have liability insurance and their motivations are not with the customer’s safety! More than once I have informed customers, as my liability insurance requires, as most of them do, as honor and the trade dictates, that existing leaks will be charged to them and I cannot provide an estimate until I start the job. Most reasonable homeowners are glad we can find leaks, but generally I haven’t met too many that are happy with a growing bill. If the customer indicates they will not agree to this, I politely refuse the work, and enter into my job workbook the existing conditions as I saw them in case I am ever called to testify when the other guy blows up the home, or discussions of this type take place when the plumbing inspector condemns the job and we get called back to do it correctly.

Ken L.

If I show the leak to the town inspectors

If I show the leak to the town inspectors (fire, plumbing and electrical) tomorrow what will be the result to the plumber?

bob young

gas leak= explosion

if plumber violated code regulation ,he is liable. if not ,get out the checkbook. i got a feeling you are letting this gas leak go unresolved much longer than you should. you gotta be a gambler.

Ken L.

what do I need to do to replace a gas line?

OK heating professionals, what do I need to know to properly replace a gas line. The line is 1 inch black pipe. I have been told not to use teflon anything on the threads and to avoid putting pipe dope on the first two threads. I'll listen to any rants on safety. I used to be an automechanic at the dealership level and can fix a rainy day. I even took HVAC in high school but we never got near discussing gas lines. I'll shut off the gas and flush the line of gas with compressed air. Can I safely use a saws-all on the line? Should I get a pipe cutter? I will use a wrench to backup the fittings. I'll even post when completed to let you all know it went well.

I'm planning on an afternoon project. The length is 9'1". I'll use a union to install two sections of pipe, while supporting the remaining sections.

bob young

left & right or wrong

Ken, you are kidding,right ??? first of all a union is an illegal fitting to use on a gas line. they loosen when you don't want them to and leak. think gas leak = explosion. do yourself a favor let a plumber fix it and fix the plumbers car. the barter system and no one dies unless the car blows up.

CFH

If it was a leak in an existing line that was not worked on by the installer it is an extra charge. Even if some force was put on it during the installation. If the gas pipe was properly installed you can put of stress on it and not cause a leak. There is no way the plumber should be responsible for existing problems..

Ken L.

gas line union?

This is why I am asking questions before I begin. The line that is leaking is 1 inch back pipe from a T.

So, if a union is not legal on a gas line, the entire gas line(s) must be repiped?

There is a union from the gas line to the boiler. I suspect it is difficult to turn the boiler to tighten the line. The plumbing inspector came and went.

Ken L.

extra charge

I agree. I am not blaming the plumber.

How much do you want to fix it?

Ken

jackchips_2

You were

given excellent advice, Ken and you are now turning this thread into a joke and it's not funny.

Obviously you did not point out the leak to the inspector or he would have red carded the installation, turned off your gas and made you get it repaired by a licensed installer.

I hope you don't have family in that time bomb.

Jack

Chris_82

Ken,

Be glad to help Ken, whats your address, so I can call your insurance company and warn your neigbors of your gross stupidity and also so I can call the local child protective services, in case you kill your kids I want you to go to jail.

Long Beach Ed

You people...

... are really out of line.

The guy has a leak and he wants to fix it. Repiping is a trade, but not something that a good mechanic can't figure out with some help and advice.

Turn off the gas and let it sit for awhile to air out. Make sure it's off. You can use soap suds and see if they bubble. Then cut the pipe with a pipe cutter or a Sawzall. The pipe cutter is better because the cut is clean and straight.

Most codes require "left right" couplings which consist of a nipple with a right thread on one end and a left on the other. The left end fits a special coupling. As you twist the nipple, both ends will tighten.

You'll have a hard time finding the left right couplings. Most plumbers use unions and almost all the utilities use them. Utilities are exempt from the codes and many plumbers are hacks and slobs.

When you are done, check your work with soap suds. A mercury test is much more accurate, but again, few plumbers actually do them anymore. Especially check the shut off valve -- many of the new ones are inferior and leak badly.

There you go -- you saved $1500 and you didn't blow the place up. Real rocket science, that plumbing.

bob young

lic. plbg job

With all due respect, you sir, Mr. Harvey , are an extremely dangerous individual. gas should be respected ,not a task for a non--professional. lives are at stake. i hope no one is foolish enough to heed your advise . you can't buy a life for fifteen hundred bucks.

Chris_82

Dan,...once again homeowners that think they can...

I spent 5 years as an union apprentice and get this kind of attitude all the time...The following is what I go thru on a regular basis...

"Your witness counselor,"... (John Doe homeowner,)"(my plumber,) "how did he describe how to light the pilot? was he (your plumber) in the room with you?,” No." "So he was on the phone?" "No.," "Can you describe (his involvement, then," "He told me how to do it on the internet." "In an E-mail." The resulting fire...

$50,000 awarded in damages to savvy homeowners that made up a story, just like Ken L. here is looking for free advice from people he thinks are ripping him off. Just like Mr. fictitious Harvey here...they will be the first in line with their Lawyer saying they got bad advice, from us dumb plumbers doing rocket science.