Trying to finalize steam boiler decision - need opinions

kevin coppinger_4

has a set up specifically for this purpose. It is the G8 and it does come w/ the carlin burner. Check out smithboiler.com carlin and smith worked on this together to get the specs right...

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=323&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Sheila

help!

First, thanks to all who have posted in response to my and my husband Jeff's clueless and frantic posts over the last month. We've learned a lot, but of course with more knowledge often comes more questions. To refresh your memories, we discovered this heating season that our Dunkirk steam boiler has a leak (likely due to a combination of faulty installation, a pipe that was allowed to leak for a long time before we bought the house, and high water choride content) and we are trying to make the best decision on a replacement possible.

Important facts: We need a gas fired, steam boiler. We have about 750 sq. ft. of radiation (and therefore need a 300,000 BTU boiler). We have an old, unlined, huge chimney. It may be difficult/impossible to put a lining in the chimney because it is not perfectly straight. We want as efficient a system as we can get given that we don't intend to replace it again any time soon.

So, what we've come to is we would like to have a wet base steam boiler with a power gas burner. We've had our HVAC guy investigate getting a Weil McLain SGO (generally configured to be an oil fired boiler) with a Carlin burner and the response from the rep at Weil McLain was - "why would you want to do that? Those burners are so loud and there is no efficiency rating for that combination." We thought we had it settled until the WM person essentially scoffed.

Any feedback on an SGO boiler with a power gas burner would be greatly appreciated! This process has been so frustrating!

GW

You're so right, how frustrating when you have an idea and someone puts the kibosh on it. Especially a rep who you would hope has better bed-side manners!

I'll admit my ignorance; just because you have a conversion burner means you do not have to line the chimney? If the answer is "yes", it speaks to the excessive amount of heat being lost up the chimney. Well, anything steam means excessive heat up the chimney! (Less efficient)

You say you won't be doing this again soon and that I guess goes without saying, but have you considered replacing the steam system? There are die-hard steam loyalists that will jab back at me, but would you replace the engine in an old car? Same thing here, your pipes are what, 80 plus years old? Some claim they'll last forever but I prefer new myself.

The reps comments are to be taken with a grain of salt. The burner should be no louder than an oil burner, so I don't know what he's talking about there. Obviously louder than tube-style burners known in conventional gas boilers. As far as rated, I believe larger boilers do not have to be rated. My assumption is the gun will be more efficient than the conventional tube style because the savvy tech can fine tune the o2/co2 for maximum heat from the combustion process.





To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul_11

a few questions

I think you are on the right track, but I have a few questions and comments.

When you say you have 750 square feet of radiation, do you mean you have 750 square feet of EDR? If that is what you mean 300,000 is a little bit too big, but not much.

Are you making domestic hot water with this boiler?
Please use a vaporstat!!!!!!!
Do you have plenty of air vents on the piping?

I don't like Carlin gas burners, I prefer Riello or Midco and if you want the best get a Weishaupt. Riello is probably the best valve, dollar/quality, but Weisshaupt is the best but very expensive.

I would probably go with a Burnham V87 or V88 and one of the above burners, depending on the budget.
Respectfully,

Paul B. Shay
pshay@arealgoodplumber.com
LMP 1307
LMFS 654B
OUR MISSION: TO PROVIDE WORLD CLASS PLUMBING, HEATING, AND SPRINKLER SERVICE TO EACH AND EVERY CLIENT WE SERVE, FAR EXCEEDING THEIR HIGHEST EXPECTATIONS!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Sheila

Yes, sorry - I mean 750 Sq. ft. EDR.

I don't really know what you mean by "making domestic hot water" so my guess is we aren't planning on doing that. What is the purpose?

What makes a Riello burner better than Carlin?

Our HVAC person generally installs WM boilers so we were trying to find a workable solution that he was comfortable with. Living in a small town way upstate can be somewhat limiting in terms of HVAC competition but also easy access to different boiler brands and parts.

Any idea how much more a wet base with a power gas burner would be compared to a typical atmospheric set-up?

Thanks.

Paul_11

what small city way upstate? I'm originally from Albany

I know what you mean by needing to decide on something that someone near you can actually install. I feel for you.

Carlin is known for competitive and reliable basic oil burners. They are not known for gas burners. Riello is just a high quality burner. More reliable and their parts are pretty easy to get.

Domestic hot water is the water you shower with.

Wet base boilers with gas burners will be more expensive, but a lot more efficient. I can't give you an exact % without doing more work,ut I'd 25% more expensive to buy, which isn't really that much.


Respectfully,

Paul B. Shay
pshay@arealgoodplumber.com
LMP 1307
LMFS 654B
212-505-1837
917-939-0593
OUR MISSION: TO PROVIDE WORLD CLASS PLUMBING, HEATING, AND SPRINKLER SERVICE TO EACH AND EVERY CLIENT WE SERVE, FAR EXCEEDING THEIR HIGHEST EXPECTATIONS!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Sheila

About 200 mi W of Albany between Syracuse and Rochester

Paul, Thanks for the very useful info. When you say that the wet base would be about 25% more, I'm assuming you mean that the actual boiler cost is that much more (rather than boiler plus labor). Do they require any more labor for installation?

Also, if we aren't able to get a lining in the chimney, would a wet base be an option? I know that a lining would be very necessary if we had a damper but my understanding is that a damper isn't as necessary with a wet base.

Thanks.

Sheila

Gary,

We have considered going to forced air or hot water heat but have decided against both. For one, the expense of replacing the steam boiler is going to be plenty for us to absorb much less re-piping or adding duct-work to a 3600 sq. ft. house! Also, we just aren't certain that the quality of heat would be as good. It would be nice to have a heating method that requires less maintainance. I do envy my parents with their forced air heat - no vents to replace, no leaks to look for, no boiler sludge to drain...

Steamhead (in transit)

Sheila, you need to talk to David Sutton

he puts in SGO boilers with Carlin gas burners frequently. Unfortunately he is not in your area. I'll see if I can find his e-mail address for you.

EDIT: Found it and sent it to you- check your e-mail.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mad Dog_2

Sounds like you are in The Finger Lakes

We have been vacationed there My whole life. Branchport. Mark Hunt & Darin Cook of Comfortable Home Technologies are the best steam guys you will find up that way. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

GW

I urge you to investigate a little more, and consider financing the retro-fit. I appreciate your true limitations, but by the time you replace your steam boiler you're part way there to a modern hasle-free system.

Not sure if a new hot water system would be "as comfortable", uhhh, if done right, nothing compares.

Grab a cup of coffee and look at my web site, I may be able to win you over!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Sheila

Thanks, Kevin. We actually had looked at the Smith G8 and were very excited about it; unfortunately, the largest G8 is a bit undersized for the job. So, we were back to the drawing board and that's when we started looking at the SGO with a gas burner.

Sheila

Yep. We are very close to Seneca Lake. I wish it looked like that picture today - it is 10 degrees right now as I type. I looked up Comfortable Home Technologies and they are unfortunately about 3 hours from us. I did the zip code search on heating help to find a contractor in our area and there was no one within a 100 mile radius .

Boilerpro_5

Boiler Size.....

This response may bring more questions than answers but....so do you have one pipe or two pipe steam and has a complete heat loss analysis of the home been completed? If you have two pipe and the radiation is oversized for the heat loss you should be able to put in orifice plates in the radiator inlet valves and downsize the boiler to a less costly to install and more efficient to operate size.

Boilerpro

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Sheila

We have a one-pipe steam system. My understanding is that a boiler needs to be sized the radiation in the house (we have 19 radiators ranging from big to bigger) and not to heat loss. When we moved in we did have some sort of analysis done by the company that insulated our attic and we've made a lot of improvements so the heat loss should be less now. I supposed the one pipe setup doesn't allow for the same downsizing option?

Sheila

Thanks again Steamhead. I will email him today for his input!

Boilerpro_5

One pipe is much less decided...

on the issue of downsizing..most say no, a few, like myself, say yes and have seen it work on many very old boilers. It is safer to size by radiation for one pipe systems. If you are looking at a power gas burner in an oil boiler, talk to the folks at Slant Fin. They have experience with this. Burnham makes a power vent steam boiler with standard burner tubes, but the largest is 175,000 input. Maybe two of these used together could do the job. Sort of like the attached picture, only a different brand.

Boilerpro

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ttekushan_3

BOILERPRO, I really like the idea

of two steamers, with the combo liberally sized for start-up, so that one in operation is a bit undersized. Once steam flow is established in the radiators with both boilers, the steam is literally drawn out of the "running" boiler. You can even use dissimilar sized boilers for this effect.

BOILERPRO, your articles along with input from Gerry Gill, and of course influence from Steamhead, I decided to stage a steam CI multi-base boiler assembly (its two dissimilarly sized boilers bolted together). Three pressure controls: Safety Limit, Operating Limit (normal cut-out), Staging Limit.

It starts on both, then shifts to the larger unit only. Naturally its piped with both inlets and both outlets, and a lwco on each side, but with sight glass and auto water feeder control on the "always operated" side. If the larger side shuts down, the smaller side can not operate.

There are also two motorized flue dampers, each wired to the individual base burner involved so the staged part of the boiler shuts down and closes its damper.

WOW. The run times are not perceptibly more lengthy than they are running as a single large boiler, but the system is also not prone to overshoot in room temp either. We just lopped off 400,000 btu's off a total of 900,000 for a vast majority of boiler operating time. The 400,000 base boiler only needs to run for a longer period during bitterly cold temperatures, or after a deep set back.

This set-up heats the building more evenly and every bit as effectively as the old, leaking 1,200,000 btu boiler that was there before.

It doesn't take a genius to see that effective heating WITH THE ORIGINAL STEAM HEATING SYSTEM with all its benefits of comfort for effectively ONE HALF THE FUEL CONSUMPTION as before is reducing fuel costs by about 50%.

BTW, this is the kind of fuel savings number that the "trash steam systems at any (and your) cost" crowd claims by switching to some other form of heat.

Yes, I'm emphatic about it, but not out of some wispy nostalgia thing for steam heat that many here condescendingly dismiss the steam professionals with. The fuel savings that I've gotten with steam systems are no fluke. I've done it time and time again.

I can get into the scientific discussion of the steam system's power of condensation thats generated at the boiler, yet never considered in measures of boiler efficiency some other time.

-Terry Tekushan, Efficient Steam

David Sutton_6

Hello Sheila

heres the picture i told you about, Your on the right track. learn all you can.

David

Steamhead (in transit)

Terry, I have two questions

First, do you have or will you have some before-and-after fuel-consumption figures that show the savings in hard numbers?

Second, can you PLEASE post some pics of this job? We need to see it!

And thanks for the kind words!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave Miller

Sheila, as a fellow Fingerlakes HO (Skaneateles)

who got a lot of assistance from these talented and dedicated Wallies, I can say that EDR was what I used to size our 2nd one-pipe steamer. Yes, I said second, because the first one our contractor installed in our 1930's, not so tight house, was 72% oversized and very badly piped.

With input from The Wall, I was able to get them to install the correct size boiler, (based on my EDR survey) and pipe it correctly, so the system runs nearly perfectly, now.

Since you are in this contractor's trading area, I recommend you email me with your address so I can give you the story.........

millerdave@att.net

GW

Excellent

Now we're dropping "50% fuel savings" for steam changeouts. Way to go. The 1.2 Million BTU must have been a super-pig!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ttekushan_3

sometimes I get a bit

torqued, since I've probably seen more HW jobs stuck in yesteryear's accumulated bungles, consuming more energy than one could imagine. And many of the steam jobs out there are ridiculously out of tune, spec, whatever and waste fuel as if it were free (and limitless).

Under no circumstances do I recommend that these wasteful heating systems be left as they are. Its just that the industry (for a wide variety of reasons) has focused on hydronic, creating this self fulfilling prophecy of inefficient steam systems. So there's really a terrible lack of knowledge out there on steam system technique. The high pressure steam guys don't even think about heating systems, and average heating guys rarely work with steam and often when they do, as Dan has pointed out, experience can teach a lot of wrong lessons. So residential and light commercial steam languishes between two worlds.

Think of how much you really good HW guys really have to know to pull off the comfort and efficiency that good hydronics have to offer. You virtually have to reach a level of engineer (maybe without the clipboard and pocket protector) and think like the water in the system.

Steam requires no less understanding and care to pull off the same trick. I like to say that I'm a purveyer of vaporware:-) So the time for amateur hack jobs and deferred maintenance has passed as we understand how much fuel costs and why.

In many ways I think we're all really on the same page around here.

Next time I check up on the staged multi base boiler, I'll take a photo or two. The owner's going to keep track of the gas bills for me. His impression is that the system is actually running less frequently. Of course, that old oversized beast was long neglected and rusted, scaled, leaking, and just plain wasteful.

Sheila

I wish I had the time, energy, and money to consider a two boiler option. The idea makes sense especially for a monster of a house like ours. It would sort of be like having a hybrid car where you only have to depend on one source of energy for most days, but the other source (in this case the extra boiler) could kick in when need be. However, I just don't think we are in a position to consider this option. This is a very unexpected expense (we thought we were good buying a house with a new boiler just 3 years ago) at a very inopportune time. I think one boiler is about all we can handle right now. Thanks so much for the idea though!

Sheila

Glad to see another Finger Laker here.

Your situation does sound similar to ours (our boiler is at least 25% oversized and very badly piped). Did you use the same contracor for both installations? I will probably email you directly later today.

Sheila

Mad Dog_2

Very Exciting Terry

Helluva Job. Yes, please pics. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mad Dog_2

Is Dougies' Fish Fry still around?

Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave Miller

Yes, Doug's Fish Fry

is still around! In fact, they haqve expanded in Skaeateles and have locations in Syracuse and one in Cortland. They are even on the web:

http://www.dougsfishfry.com/

Mad Dog, you must get a craving now and then. If you get back there try the beans - best anywhere.

Sheila

a few questions...

Thank you all for your input. It has been very helpful! Assuming the cost isn't completely prohibitive, I think we will go with the SGO and a power gas burner but we still have a few more questions about that combo:

1. Can we use the SGO without a chimney liner (there is a big question as to whether they can manage to line the chimney)? If so, would we have to use it without a damper? We were told that a damper requires a chimney liner.

2. If we put a Carlin burner in the SGO does that void any WM warranties (since it isn't the intended configuration)?

3. How much louder is a power gas burner compared to a regular atmospheric one? Would it be very noticeable if you weren't in the basement?

4. Paul Shay said that the SGO + power burner would cost about 25% more than a regular atmospheric boiler - is that 25% more on materials or 25% more for materials and labor?

Answers to these questions would really help us put this matter to rest.

Thanks again!

Steamhead (in transit)

Answer #3

The Carlin power gas burner sounds like an oil burner does. It's louder than an atmospheric burner, but not excessively loud.

#4- Not sure about the 25%, but oil-fired boilers do tend to be a bit more expensive than atmospheric gas ones.

I would also have the chimney lined if at all possible.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

John_173

a bump for Steve, et alia

No message, just interesting reading.

joe lambert_2

Downsize your radiation to fit the heat loss of the house

I'm working on a house with radiators that are too large to fit the heat loss of the house. Instead of just installing a large boiler to fit the EDR in the house we bought a bunch of smaller cast iron thin tube steam radiators that more closely match the heat loss of each room. We then bought a steam boiler that matches what the heat loss of the house is. The new radiators were also inexpensive with most of them costing less than $100 ea.

You could do that same thing to help save on fuel. Your contractor might have to use a larger pickup factor for sizing the boiler though depending on how oversized the piping might be for the smaller radiators. In my case the radiators weren't too small for the pipe they were connected too.

In my own home I save on average 33% in fuel over what I used to spend with the old 1925 gas converted snow man we had and that is with a WM EG 40. Stay tuned pictures will follow sometime in late spring.