Oil Condensing Boiler

Rob_42

Could someone verify that I am on the right track with my sizing? Based on heating of the home via 2 fan coil units 70,036 BTU (energy audit heat loss) and heating of the garge 15,000 BTU (rough estimate). I need a boiler capable of producing 85,000 BTU/hr? If so when reading boiler specs do I look at the DOE for this rating? Seems like they list a input, output and net BTUs.

And with DHW priority (supplied via indirect fired hotwater tank)I do not need to add extra BTU output to my 85,000 correct?

Rob_41

Oil Condesing Boiler Recommendations

We are currently framing a 5140 sq.ft 2 story house with full basement. We are installing a high velocity forced air system with two fan coils (one for basement and one for main and 2nd floor). I will also be having a heating loop run through our garage slab. Total BTU requirement is about 85,000 BTU. The home is a green home (similar to R2000). I would like to run an oil condensing boiler in the garage and supply a Indirect Tank (DHW) in the utility room (basement). We do not have gas where we live only oil (Northwestern Canada).

I would like some input on brands available for oil condensing boilers as well as users feedback on servicing, reliablity etc. Thanks so much for the forum, great info!

Norm Harvey

Condensing tecchnology for oil hasnt quite been developed yet, but for energy saving options there are a few options,.. what kind of heating system do you have currently?

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Rob_41

Oil Condensing Boiler

In last house (which we just sold) was a typical forced air fan coil supplied by a 30 gallon oil fired hotwater tank. This provided our domestic and heat requirements for about 2600 sq.ft of living space, two adults and two children. We did not have a radiant slab in the garage.

We do have propane up here, I will have 2 propane fireplaces in this new house. Would propane be a beter option?

Norm Harvey

If you want to take advantage of modulating condensing boilers, propane would be your option,..

My best piece of advice would be to find a real professional in your area to install and service you new system. There are a few good brands of mod/cons, all comperable. Its the quality of the installation where you will see the most bennefit.

That being said,.. I'll turn the floor over to people here that have extensive mod/con experience.

Good luck with your new home.

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Constantin

Two condensing brands for sale in the US, so far...

There is the Monitor FCX from Monitor that had been the sole boiler for sale in the US to condense. 75kBTUH output. Peerless recently released a similar boiler with a somewhat higher output, IIRC. So those are the two brands I'd check out.

What are your design-day conditions for the house to need that much heat? If you have the luxury of insulating the house any way you want, why not go with 2x6 24" o.c. walls with Mooney-style strapping, Corbond, and enjoy R40 walls. Combine that with triple-pane windows (which get you up to R5) and the heating and cooling needs should plummet.

Considering the low cost of putting in good insulation at this juncture, this is what I'd focus on, since the added insulation then has a domino effect in terms of reducing operating costs, plant sizing, etc. The cold weather building techniques book from building science corp. is quite enlightening, as are their vast building america resources.

Ed_26

boiler

NTI - trinity also an option. Where in Nw canada?

Weezbo

like you i would like to see some condensing oil fired boilers..

it is not that they do not exist it is that there are not many sizes available unless one is interested in running a boiler to destruction.

In the cold of winter the barometric pressures change from one side of the wall to the other...that is likely something of a draw back to concentric venting ....the fuel of choise is oil all right, Kero...that is something like #1 fuel oil ....with 5,100+ you probably may need to think about this one minor technicality....when your designe day is looming on the horizon ,the propane, profax LP, whatever it is called ,is not liking to flow quite to its optimum ...that means relying on the gas fireplace might be on the not the thing to do list.


i post this much, now, because... i type ,like real slow... Eh? *~/:)


Here is a couple ideas you might entertain, one is the Vitola ,this is a real good boiler and it has more than one size..while not a condensing boiler it can hold up its end in the struggle against the cold. there are other multi pass boilers i do not know what you may have available at the wholesale companies in Canada. the wiseman are available though... the stack temps are rather on the cool side so i think your idea of having the boiler in the garage is pretty good idea..helps to keep the stacks short.

my last post vanished into the ethers:) Well, you can ask Constantin ,he has one and is being habby with his choise:) he types lots quicker:) And always helps on the minor technicalities or questions you may have

Constantin

Hee hee...

Nice to hear from you, Weezbo!

You hit it on the head re: installation conditions... LP regulators freezing up in a raging blizzard, would be... (brrrr!)... pretty unpleasant. Similarly, running a boiler in a very cold garage may not be optimal either, regardless of fuel. I'd segregate it, if possible, from cold spaces.

I'm quite positive about sealed combustion, however, particularly the concentric kind. Perhaps the climate is so extreme in your locale that you guys have constant issues with concentric kits. One of the beauties of the concentric systems is that with the right vent termination kit, there is no ΔP between the intake and the exhaust, hence no need for a barometric damper.

As for Ms. vitola, yes, I am very happy with her. She is not a condensing boiler, she may not offer sealed combustion as an option, etc. but I get flue temps in the 250-275°F range, zero smoke, 12% Co₂, little CO, and a calculated thermal efficiency somewhere north of 90%. Good enough for me.

Rob_42

Oil Condensing Boiler

Thanks for all the feedback.

We are in Whitehorse, Yukon. Design Temp is -41.8 F.

Most people I know usinf LP do have some problems during extemely cold temps. Fr that matter, we have had dielel fuel gel on us as well.

House is quite well insulated.
9" Walls (2x6 w/ 2x3 horizontal strapping)
Ceilings are R50
1.5" thick x 2' wide Styrofoam over exterior footings
Wndows are triple pane, 1 coat low-e, argon gas filled.
Air Changes are 1.0 per hour. It is very tight to meet the Green Home Standard up here.
Heating requirement for ouse 70,036 BTU/hr

I will be running infloor heating in the garage. his additional heating loadis not included in the 70,036. The garage is 24 x 25 with 6" walls and will have 2" styrofoam underslab. The ceilings will be spray foamed (aprox 10") as we have living space above. I am estimaing 15,000 BTU for the gaage. We will only keep it at 50F in there or so. I do not think need to mainain it at a living temperature. Thoughts?

So back to the boiler, would I see a siginificant reduction in heating costs using one of the condensing/modulating boilers noted above vs say a Vissemann Vitola or Weil-Mclein Ultra Oil Boiler? From what I can se on the Vitola it is modulating?

If I did opt for a Ultra Oil boiler would the UO3 be properly sized? This would be assuming I need 85,000 BTU total. With DHW priority I do not need to add exrta BTU for DHW when sizing correct?

Thanks again for your help. My Heating guy sems to be a bit old school as is my plumber and I'm having trouble getting my questions addressed.

Weezbo

Rob. i am on the good foot to work...

so i am in a bit of a rush:)



1. the car isnt going to complain...even if it were 40F

the Vitola is able to deal with real cool temps comming back..

2 Grumpy has spun in quite a few Ultra oils. he Likes them. Glowing reports Always:)

all three of the boilers are penny pinching when it comes to fuel gotta go.... if you had a dime you might call the Cold Climate reasearch center at the University of Alaska,Fairbanks they have one of each that they are monitoring within thier boiler room. Mike may have the actual numbers for what each is burning and the operating parameters...

Constantin

That's a nice insulation job!

.... then again, if I were living in the artic, or near-artic, I'd consider some beefy walls and windows too!

Your ACH number strikes me as high, given your insulation schedule - I guess it must be achieved via an HRV? If you still have a choice re: what HRV to put in to get those air changes, I'd check out the Lifebreath units with a dual heat exchanger or the stirling unit from ultimateair.com

Also, I'd look into what is really needed to keep the house fresh and healthy vs. blowing a lot of air through it. Consider occupancy patterns, etc. I found that by putting the "stale-air" HRV inlets into the bathrooms and using an occupancy sensor to trigger the HRV into high-speed mode that there are no smells, humidity issues, etc. A separate pipe inlet opens whenever the kitchen fan fires, no HRV for that! :-P

The HRVs then run on the lowest speed 1/3 the time just to keep the air fresh. It's more than enough, especially if you have an AC system to help "turn over" the air in the house. I run my air handler 1/3 of the time on the lowest speed for that also. Our natural infiltration is 0.2ACH, BTW.

AFAIK, the Vitola shipping in the NA market does not have the option for a modulating oil burner. The Europeans have several burners out there that can step fire hi-lo, and the Vitola controller can control either a modulating or a step-firing burner. Trouble is, none are available in oil for the Vitola in NA.

Whether you would see a huge reduction in operating costs running a condensing oil boiler vs. a non-condensing low-temp boiler like the Vitola could be a neat topic for debate. For one, oil has much less latent heat to tap into, approx. 1/2 of that of natural gas (7% vs. 13%, IIRC). Thus, there is less to gain from condensation, particularly if your boiler can run with very low return temperatures, like a Vitola or a G215 from Buderus, a condensing oil boiler, etc.

The modulation feature would be really neat in oil, but it would probably require a boiler with only one combustion chamber... i.e. something like we see in the gas-fired mod-con world vs. the two-chamber systems typically found on condensing oil boilers. As sulfur levels in heating oil are reduced by decree, single-chamber systems that modulate may start arriving in NA... anyone up for a VitoPlus?

Uni R_3

Why not go for twins?

How about 2 conventional 50K or less oil-fired boilers? Major league built in redundancy plus 2 stage control!

Would they be much more money to install or that less efficient than a non-modulating condensing boiler that is oversized 99% of the time.

Rob_42

Oil Boiler Sizing

Here is some really detailed information on the house. A copy of the energy audit.

We are using a HRV (Lifebreath 200). The airchanges of 1.0 are the requirement we need to meet to be approved by the Green Home Program. The actual air leakage and ventilation is in this file. It is kind of hard to fumble through for the non-experienced, but It would seem the house will be about .2 ACH.

No modulating burner in North America... then they shoudn't have it in the US website brochure. Oh well.

The option of running two boilers? Don't know on that would like feedback on that though.

Could someone address the sizing questions I had in my last post and let me know if I am thinking correctly?

adambuild

WM!?

What about the Weil McLain Ultra Oil?

myles_2

vitola

I don't know when it will be introduced in
N.A but i no they have a condensing attachment
for the vitola in europe.you would need about 2
feet extra behind the boiler from the picture i
saw. Check with your local Viessmann rep also Viessmann.com
great boiler witout anyway. Riello L.P power burner option
also.Good luck
myles

Constantin

I'd stick to DOE Output...

... I looked over your RTF file and found it quite interesting. I have no access to your house plans, etc. but it looks like someone took a lot of time and effort to get the thing right.

I'd match your proposed heat loss with the DOE output of a boiler. The DOE output of both condensing brands available in the US (Monitor @ 75kBTU/hr and Peerless @ 77kBTU/hr) is marginally less than what you expect on a design day. That said, perhaps you're OK with a slightly cold garage when it's -45°F outside? How many days do those conditions occur on?

If that is potentially the plan, I'd think a bit about the oil storage temperatures. Most diesel blends start to gell when it gets very cold. Perhaps the NW has special #2 blends that resist gelling at those temperatures. Ditto for intake air temperatures... Make sure that the manufacturer knows what kinds of conditions you're about to put their equipment through.

If this is a regular home with "regular" hot water needs, I wouldn't add capacity to the heating plant, I'd simply install a IDWH that can handle the peak loads. Speaking of which, your file has a electric water heater listed... a mistake, I assume? The Vitocell 300 series from Viessmann is sweet, but not cheap... a Smart 50 from Triangle-Tube may be more cost effective.

Anyway, a Viessmann Vitola VB2-22 would have a net output of 92kBTU/hr, which would cover the heat loss and add a small margin for error. Ron Shroeder is running a Buderus G115 with oil on a DV kit and he's very happy with it also. Best of luck!

Kevin G_2

Peerless pinnacle OIL FIRED CONDESING Boiler 92% eff.

Look into the Peerless Line at the Pinnacle oil fired. This will fit the bill nicely. It's been out over a year now. simple installation and service. All the info that you could need is online at Peerlessboilers.com

Kevin G

Rob_42

The Right Size

Thanks Constantin,

The design day is hit maybe twice per winter and for no longer than a day or two at a time. We do run #2 winter pour fuel here in the winter, vehicles and homes.

We are a 2 adult, 2 young children family, nothing out of the ordinary so I won't add BTU requirement for DHW. Thanks for the confirmation.

My plumber although very capable, is also very old school from my impression. originally sizing my Boiler setup with a WTGO5 Weil McLain at 175 BTU (with tankless water heater) and electric hotwater tank used in the summer when the boiler is shut down (that is where the electric tank in the audit came from). I told them I wanted to research this type of setup before I would agree, and it didn't take me more than a couple days to read enough that I did not want to go that route. Now I am finding thier original boiler sizing is over double my demand. Crazy.

I am leaning on the WM Ultra UO3 (98 BTU @ 0.8 gph) due to the fact that mycurrent project plumber is a WM dealer. Alhthough they lack experience with them, I will have some experienced backup. Just want to make sure I understand the fundamentals first so I can oversee their plans to some extent. We also have a Viessmann dealer here, but I fear dealing with them, to many horror stories on the business, its a shame when they carry a good product.

Anyway, the WM Ultra Uo3 is somewhat oversized by 15% of design day. But it is as small as they come. I hope this is not too much of a waste.

I do need to know more about running the boiler with 2 fancoils, infloor garage heat and indirect HW Tank. I expect this would be a 3 heat zone + DHW. All would be supplied a different temperatures. I will make a new post on these types of questions so I don't fill this one with subjects off topic.

Thanks,

TAS_2

Condensing oil

I have an FCX in my house and is running fine. I installed one for my neighbor; working well too. I do have brand new one available if you are interested.