Guess whats wrong with this brand new install???

David Sutton_6

I have to give you credit for posting those pictures and willingness to ask for help !!it shows you are on the right track!!

as you can see there are alot of problems with this systemthe question is what will your boss let you do??

This boiler is not going to see to many happy seasonsAsk your boos for a free rien on repairs and use the advice thats been offered and get-r-done


David

Mike D

Guess whats wrong with this brand new install

The company I work for put this in about 1 year ago. We have been back twice aweek ever since. Please be brutally honest.

Paul Pollets

Huhh?

Just another job that was oversized and underpiped. I recommend Dan's book "Pumping Away" to start.

If I was called in on a job like this, I'd start over. The first question should be "who sized it?" The second would be "who piped it?" There are significant piping errors on all of the "near-boiler" piping. I'm sure another Walleye will detail the problems...wish I had more time.

I'll bet this machine is condensing. And wasting boocoo BTU's!!

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Brad White

Let's See

1. Pumping the return toward the expansion tank.

2. Flow checks on the suction side of the circulators. Has to be some cavitation there. How long do the circulators last?

3. Air vent on suction side of the Circulator Farm. (That sucks...

4. Assorted leaks for whatever reasons. What does the firebox look like?

5. Gas pipe strap supports not to code for material nor spacing.

6. Sum of circulator flows versus pipe size of header. Seems out of whack. Was it ever summed? Too bad that second tapping was not used on the supply. Perhaps the same can be said of the return?

I suspect venting was a common past-time?

Dave_4

Flow checks

Those swing checks won't stop gravity feed for one thing.

heatboy

You are kidding...........

..........right? Are there any fitting that don't leak?

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ALH_4

protection

Like Paul mentioned, there is no boiler thermal protection. That vent pipe looks brand new. What is it connected to? Radiators? Baseboard? Radiant floors?

John Reynolds

Wouldn't you want an airscoop or a Spirovent on the feed and get rid of the old expansion tank ?

don_156

Sorry to say

it looks like the whole company drop the ball.So take it easy on the installer.

When it come times for butt kicking, it looks like everyone needs to be in line.

Ted_9

call back

I don't have the energy to get into what I see wrong. But i'd like to know what are the service calls that you guys are getting?

Please list them numerically.



Massachusetts

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kevin coppinger_4

What are the call backs ...

concerning? Twice a week? thats a lot of callbacks....I surprised they are still calling the installer...after awhile most would give up and call another company....kpc

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ScottMP

You asked to be brutal

Your Slobs and know one cared about good piping practice.

Scott

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Unknown

another furance

Another boiler job done by furance company....

Empire_2

rjbphd???

What are you saying??? Very short sighted on your part. I love furnaces and I'll go head to head with you on boilers and design techniques any day as long as you buy the beers....:-)

Also, Ted: Like you said, list them Numerically and you forgot to say after you run out of numbers,...List them alphabetically....lol:-)

Mike T.

Mike D

We have been back about twice a week to bleed air from the system. We have only had to replace one pump so far. Guys, don't rag me out I tried to tell my boss about this website. I own 5 or 6 of Dans books but my boss doesn't want to hear about these "fancy new internet ideas". Oh yeah its a 10 flat apt. building with baseboard heat.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

To Be Brutally Honest...

...it looks like some utterly clueless person destroyed a perfectly good gravity system because the homeowners wanted "zones" and perhaps headroom in the basement.

This clueless person had obviously NEVER heard of TRVs. They also likely installed an insanely oversized boiler tried to screw big (2 1/2" or larger) pipe with 18" wrenches (maybe even a single wrench).

"Abortion" seems to be an apt description...

Brad White

In Medieval and Colonial Days,

bleeding had as much chance of a cure.

The air being sucked in has to be reaking havoc with the piping insides.

Funny how these fancy new internet ideas were first written on paper by Dead Men many years ago.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Mike D,

If you really wan't to be in this trade and learn how to do jobs properly (and it sounds like you do because your reading Dan's stuff)

DUMP YOUR BOSS WHO IS A SLOB AND GET A NEW JOB TOMMORROW!

IF NOT SOONER.

You can't learn anything from someone that stupid. Work for someone that cares and be his best employee.

DO IT!
ED

Al Corelli_2

Bleeding.

Now THAT was funny, Brad!

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Unknown

How many floors ?

If it's 3 floors up , I'd increse the boiler pressure . And did you power purge the system ? We try to get it up around 25 psi to bleed the zones . And are you absolutely sure there is no leaks in the piping ?

Your company is up around 100 calls for this one system ? I can see the supply pipes go out and split probably somewhere else . So pumping away would be a MAJOR job in itself . But sooner or later ( very soon I'd think ) this customer is going to give up and want a proper running system . If it was me I'd get rid of the compression tank next , throw in a bladder type , change the 30 psi relief to a 40 psi ( if the boiler is rated for higher pressure ) , crank the pressure to 25 psi. and install a good air eliminator .

And pray for the best . Cause the next step is repiping the whole friggin thing .

Good luck Mike .

Empire_2

Great call EBEBRATT....

This is a man who cares about his trade and most of all wants to correct a problem that his boss basically Say's is just fine!!!. I wish I could find people like him who can notice, ponder and want to make corrections to a job that is clearly. messed up. You are a Diamond in the rough. Don't let your boss bring you down. Look for different employment in the meantime and keep on doing what you are doing/. I am impressed!!!!!

Mike T.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Now I see the 10-flat apartment with baseboard.

Sure looks like the original piping and previous boiler utilized two supply tappings. Why not both on the replacement?

Dave Stroman

It is really unfortunate that all the pumps were not put on the outlet of the boiler rather than the return. At this point, without repiping everything, you can try to put a spirovent on the outlet and change the expansion tank to a bladder type. And fix the leaks!

Dave in Denver

Mike D

Ron, it's a 3 story building but we're only there during the cold winter months. We're mostly a residential company but the owner of this building is (was) a friend of my boss.

boomhower

your boss sounds like a real piece of work. probably got company from dad hired his kids to work there cause they can do nothing else. probably kept the old man his dad hired 30 yrs ago who knows everything and nothing all in one. what a mess

KindyMan

Stop the maddness and first install proper backflow protection!!

Steven Gronski

Thank god his boss doesnt go to the wall

Your lucky your boss has the mind set of a clueless one because if he ever read the wall and saw this,he would do you the favor, you would probably be fired, sued for detrament to his character, and slandsering his top notch company, if he had the money to do so, instead of wasting on having to pay the techs to keep going back to fix something. If you were in my state, id be interviewing you tomorrow for a job, just on your principles of trying to learn the right thing.

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Steven Gronski

To bad.................

I like the Taco circulators, you could have used the IFC and eliminated the check valves......... better yet for less electrical consumption, how about a properly sized single circulator with some nice Taco EBV zone valves instead.......To bad this badly botched job has to tarnish the Taco circulators...its like putting the pig on the lipstick......

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Marty

Listen to Ron

I agree with Ron including the praying part.

Weezbo

i have only looked at one picture...

The Leakers are eating it alive!...

pumping at the boiler makes all the leakers even worse enemies...i did not read all your post or view all the pics. i could hazard a guess that the thing is gurgeling from time to time you are having plenty problems with the circs needing new impellers /cartridges, random off heats in random zones...How am i doing so far?

ok i look at picture #2 and think to myself 'i would lose the fingers ...maybe the hands of someone who did that with my money.'

picture #3 seems to say tha it has just about THE Worst location for the fill valve... having pressure problems too are we? water spilling out on the floor from time to time? what is happening is the pressure changes cause a need for water..buh Then that is too much water..so it gets rid of it..buh then it fills it back to the pressure setting.. a very Karmatic approach to adding fill water.

What about a nice injection system? *~/:)

call it good

RonNE

Amazing

Looks like your company will use just about whatever they happen to have in the truck, on the floor, etc. Isn't that black pipe on the water feed also coming in, pretty basic. Got your solution though, clear out the building and blow up the boiler room.

Mitch_4

MY ADVICE IS THIS!!!

there is too much to list.

You obviously know what is wrong, because that is what you photographed. I agree with others, use find a pro here and ask for an interview. Your bailing a sinking boat and the captain doesn't see the water in the bilge.

Grab the lifeboat and put an extra oar in the water, and get out of that place because it will ruin futur employment if your resume says you " worked for dweeb and sons"...oh yeah that place we are always following and fixing their screw ups.

Sorry not interested..

get out now.

my 2 cents

Mitch

Joe Mattiello

Joe Mattiello

One of the most important fundamentals of using a conventional plain steel tank is controlling the system air, as opposed to eliminating the air with a diaphragm, or bladder type tank. A common error in an air control system is installation of automatic air vents, causing the air cushion in the tank to be depleted leaving the tank water logged and the system pressure control gone. With water logged expansion tanks the expanded water must now seek a new outlet which can be the relief valve.

Air elimination systems encompass bladder, or diaphragm type tanks with air vents strategically placed throughout the system. However, an air separation device, with an air vent should be installed at the most advantageous location where the temperature is the highest to enhance maximum air removal. see attached document for reference

Mike D

The boss told me he had peerless out about two months ago. Peerless said there is a rupture in old expansion tank and supposedly that is all he can find wrong. The new expansion tank was ordered 2 months ago. I was thinking of showing the boss this thread, maybe he'll listen to the pros because he wont listen to me.

kevin coppinger_4

that would...

take some stones to do that...you might want to be careful and have another job lined up. I don't know this guy but it sounds to me he might not want to hear it...maybe you could put it in a way coated w/ sugar....kpc

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ALH_4

battles

Any battle you have with your boss will be a losing battle. In my opinion, the best path is to continue to educate yourself. Read as much as you can. Read as many of the installation manuals as you can. Keep reading The Wall. Focus on getting a job with a better employer. It's like marrying someone with plans of changing them. Not going to happen. The battles will probably never end in your current situation.

I am sure the installation manual for that boiler has the proper piping schematics. If your boss wont listen to that, he will never listen to you.

shawn d

oh boy

I dont know how the installers can sleep.
the boss/install manager should be drawn and quartered for sending mutts to the job in the first place.
they're obviously not qualified

The Boiler Dr.

Cleless MUTTS

Shaun you are soooo right! I am dealing with a similar situation. New install which has not worked properly since day 1. I will be spending the next couple months re-doing some one else's screw ups. What a mess!

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Ted_5

WOW!

On the bright side, I have seen worse.

Ted

Steve Ebels_3

It's time

Time to break out the tinfoil hats if you're working around that very much. The ghosts of the dead men that did the original install many years ago are probably screaming at the hideous piping now attached to their once proud system.

It needs to be re-piped.........period. Sometimes looking at a system and thinking like the water will reveal that there is no hope of it ever working correctly. This is one of those times. The boss has to bite the bullet and re-do it.