Heating huge house

S Ebels

E-mail sent to you. If you have pics of the place, send them my way. Tell me a little about how the house will be used if you can when you reply.

[Deleted User]

Heating sytem for a huge house

I am restoring an old victorian in Norhtern Michigan. I am not sure how to heat this 7200sq ft. 4 level home. I not sure if it possible to supplement the "to be determinded" heat system with an exterior wood burner or what. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated as I am concerned about efficiency and cost.

Brad White_9

What is there now?

Original cast iron radiators sized for the original heat loss have astounding performance when the old house is tightened up and insulated around them

Is it now steam or hot water? Indirect pin radiators? Standing cast iron? Old gravity warm air? Do tell!

Nothing like leveraging old stuff that cannot be bought new today yet will last.

jp_2

foam insulation

i think your best bet is to have it spray foam insulated, best bet for reducing draft and having high R factor.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the reply. There is nothing in place except for the old coal burning fireplaces in each room.

Brad White_9

Blank slate!

If you can find salvaged cast iron you can do well and keep a possibly authentic look. Depending on how involved the renovation (gutting the floors for example) can lead you to radiant floors. Other ideas will present themselves.

As JP suggested, foam insulation for the integrity of the R value (Icynene as one brand has the same R value as most fiberglass) is a great thing to do. Air sealing is key.

ALH_4

foam

No doubt you are planning on upgrading the insulation, but as Brad and jp mentioned, spray foams are the ultimate in energy efficiency.

Urethane spray foams have excellent insulating properties. If I was building a home, I would use urethane foam. Icynene is somewhat less, but still excellent.

Icynene pour foam is cool stuff, but old wiring in the wall cavity (which probably should not be used anyway) could present a fire hazard. The Icynene website has some nice videos.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

No other form of heat (other than the fireplaces) was ever installed?

Is it brick/stone veneer, solid brick/stone or wood frame construction? Solid stone/brick can be challenging to insulate. Rigid exterior insulation is probably the best, but of course it completely changes the outside appearance. Rigid interior insulation is decent, but causes extensive problems with trim and window jambs.

Weezbo

This is a wonderful thing *~/:)

Mike,

You have a chance to let the homeowner see what you are made of The three things to remember is, Insulate, Ventilate and Heatilate....and not too late:)

do a heat loss as it is now, make insulation "suggestions, dovetail that into any exterior and interior remodeling ,explain controlled ventilation and its Health benefits...get it into the soffits...walls...floors...seal the bejesuit Priest out of it....tremco the plates and vapor barrier the place.... leave soffits ceilings etc open and think out your heating routes back to the boiler..

then hand him the new heat loss....

and cost savings...

NOW discuss comfort ,cooling and radiant heating

Good Luck and Good Fortune.

ALH_4

heat

As far as your heating system goes, the Stelrad Classic Column radiators would look great and could be controlled by thermostatic radiator valves, eliminating the need to run thermostat wires. Hook that to a modulating condensing boiler such as the Viessmann Vitodens, and you would have the ultimate in control, simplicity and efficiency.

Ross_7

Location?

Mike, where are you located in Northern Michigan?
Ross

[Deleted User]

The home I am working on is near Traverse City.

[Deleted User]

What kind of cost are we looking at?

[Deleted User]

Thanks to all for the great information. I definitely plan on insulation, insulation and more insulation. But, I am more interested in heating alternatives. Such as single units in each room, gas, electric, wood ...etc. I was looking at radiant hydronic heat and found the cost to be over $70,000.

[Deleted User]

Wood exterior and plaster interior, which I have completed stripped down to the slats and beams.

ALH_4

cost

The cost could range all over depending on the layout of the house (room size, number of rooms, piping difficulty, heat loss, etc.) and the particular heating method chosen. The classic column radiators are much higher priced than standard steel panel radiators which are also attractive in my opinion. Piping would be the primary difficulty, though if you are opening a few walls, it may not be that bad. I feel steel panel radiators with thermostatic valves and constant circulation is the most cost-effective option. If you can find someone in your area who is familiar with this method, that would be a good person to get an estimate from.

edit: The reason I prefer radiators with thermostatic valves is the ability to zone and set different rooms at their own temperatures. This can translate into real fuel savings. Also radiators can be low temperature emitters which improves the boiler efficiency. Radiators also require less disturbance of the existing structure than radiant floors. With a home this large, zoning can be important for lowering the temperature of rooms that are not often occupied.

jp_2

furring walls out

you may wish to consider furring the walls out to get more insulation. I suppose the walls are 4 inches? its work but adding 2x2's to get more insualtion might be usefully. or maybe 2 inch foam board before drywalling, not sure if thats code though?

you should find a good heatloss program and play with some numbers. north of you code is 2x6 walls.

a 7,000 sq house is not going to be inexpensive no matter what type of heat goes in. being in michigan I would not suggest electric heat.

individual room heaters may be the cheapest, but then you have to look at the cost of running all that gas line, plus all those ugly vents, then the gas bill would turn you white. the use of a modulating condensing boiler is going to save the most in the long run.
or at least at the end of each month when you get the gas bill.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

With hydronics your options are nearly limitless. Radiant floors are certainly nice, but they can be quite expensive and/or inadequate and/or disruptive as a retro-fit to old homes which often have very thick floors...

Unfortunately the nearly limitless options afforded by modern hydronics make for consumer (and even contractor) confusion.

Get the shell in the best thermal condition possible given the construction and any historic considerations. Find a good heating contractor early in the process, determine reasonable options, narrow down and then work towards a goal.

As menioned, if you can find a source of old iron radiators they'll be in-line with the character of the house and provide very comfortable heat. New cast iron rads are available but they are extremely expensive. Modern steel panel radiators are a very reasonable alternative.

Give highest consideration to TRVs (thermostatic radiator valves) on radiators! While certainly not free, they likely offer the best value in the hydronics business. Comfort, versatility and efficiency are their hallmarks and they often make systems (particularly larger systems) MUCH simpler with far fewer components.

S Ebels

I'm in your neck of the woods

We will be working on a job on Old Mission pennisula a couple days nest week. If you're not too far from TC, I'd be happy to stop by and see what you have to work with.

E-mail is s_ebels"at"yahoo.com

Matt Undy

2 things

1. If i am not mistaken Michigan did not adopt the energy code portion of the model building code and has no minimum insulation requirement, correct?

2. Also, if you have everything open, perhaps consider electric zone valves per radiator? Would give you more options on setback thermostats, could home run much of it to a central point to perhaps alow grouping on a few setback t-stats or some more complicated automation if somone finally comes out with one suited for a residental building in the future.

3. (or perhaps jsut a rant)I suspect you are still lookign for some information on the warm air vs hydronic choice. There is information about that on this site.

The warm air option would allow you to more easily add poorly installed comfort cooling (central air conditiong). You'd be better off adding some duct work or mini duct work or mini split units for comfort cooling that is designed for your application. A ductorwk system designed just for air conditioning will fucntion much better at air conditioning than a compromise between optimal heating and cooling configurations.

Warm air heating causes pressure difference in the house that increase heat loss through air infiltration and exfiltration (the pressure differences force warm air out in some rooms wiht increased pressure and pulls cold air in in rooms with decresed pressure). Convective and radiant forms of hydronic heat will cause much less infiltration and exfiltration.

Hydorinc systems are more easily and more effectively zoned than warm air heating systems. This means that you can design in zones that will only heat the areas you will be using at a given time, this is a significant cost savings in heating if done correctly and all areas of the house aren't occupied 24 hours a day.

A hydronic system also needs to be designed correctly if you wish to use a high efficiency appliance and wish it to operate in its highest efficency range, generally this means somewhat oversized radiation so that water tempuratures can be kept lower.

jp_2

asnwer

#1.) incorrect!

#2). possible, but very expensive, as Mike says use TRV's.

3.) if the house becomes well insulated, some sort of fresh air system would be a good thing.


edit:

matt, last time i was reading through the 2002 resid. code, i thought I ran across stuff on minimum R values for ceiling/walls and something about window size vs wall area.

I'll look again.

trv vs zone valves.

I seem to recall trv being about 1/3 cost of zone valves, then factor in labor. trv are nice to use with constant circulation.

ask Mike swampeast, he'll give you an ear full to last days!!!

Brad White_9

Excellent

postition to find yourself in. Now it gets interesting. You have an opportunity to bring the house on par with most houses built in the past 20 years.

Dave_4

Craigslist as source for cast iron radiators

Here, in the Twin Cities of Mpls and St. Paul, hundreds of used cast iron radiators are lined up at Bauer Bros. salvage. Beautiful. But they cost $15-20 per section.

On the other hand, I have had great results on the local Craigslist, and often an entire handful of radiators are being sold at reasonable price.

Maybe also in your area? e.g., from Craigslist for Michigan:

http://geo.craigslist.org/iso/us/mi

choose the site nearest you (or suggest a new one):

ann arbor (14643)
central michigan (450) new
detroit metro (76147)
flint (1503)
grand rapids (9266)
jackson (396) new
kalamazoo (1293)
lansing (2609)
northern michigan (1008)
saginaw-midland-baycity (904)
south bend / michiana (1605)
upper peninsula (571)

Weezbo

And Rightfully SO *~/:)

TRV's are some handy deals and everybody loves Dials

Jamie_6

Mike you state above, "I was looking at radiant hydronic heat and found the cost to be over $70,000."

Do you find that excessive? That is less then a dollar a square foot! I would think that someone buying a 7,200 square foot house would be looking for a Benz parked in the basement not a Ford Focus.

Just my 2 cents.


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[Deleted User]

Your comments are of great value. I am not buying the house, it is paid for and has been in our family for about 10 years. We bought it from a man who wasn't doing anything with it, he was elderly, had no money and we didn't want the house to get in worse shape. We will be using it as a in between place for people who are going thru difficult times. We are trying to preserve a gem and at the same time give something back, but I am sure you have done equally noble things.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the great info. Sounds like a couple of great sources.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the offer, but I won't be up there until late spring. Perhaps we could get together then. Could you please supply your contact info?

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the info. I will be contacting them.

jp_2

matt

i looked through the code book a bit last night, couldn't find much, so I'm not sure where I read the insulating stuff. local inspectors want to see r40 in ceilings around here.

[Deleted User]

Unknown

TRV's

i just installed 9 panel radiators in my home with integrated zone valves, i just added a TRV head to each one which were only $70 or so. no thermostat/zone valve combination can touch that pricewize and comfortwize, TRV's are continually modulating and room temp is bang-on ALL the time.

burninben

How bout a small chiller. They were talking about one on a thread the other day. Sounds like a rippin good time. Keep us posted for sure.