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Chilled water for residential

Nice to be back!

System will be four zones as follows:

First Floor one zone 5 tons

Second floor two zones 1 1/2 and 3 tons

Third floor one zone 3 tons

Building total 12.5 tons these numbers are approximate but close.

Any info on this type of system is much appreciated!

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Comments

  • TGO_54
    TGO_54 Member Posts: 327
    Chilled water for residential

    Welcome back Professor!
    I read about a system a while back that used chilled water for residential cooling - can't remember who made it. I am looking at a job where placemant of condensing units is going to be a real issue, historic home. A single condesing unit that could be remotely located would be ideal. Anyone done this type of system?
    Thanks

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  • TGO_54
    TGO_54 Member Posts: 327
    Chilled water for residential

    Welcome back Professor!

    I read about a system a while back that used chilled water for residential cooling - can't remember who made it. I am looking at a job where placemant of condensing units is going to be a real issue, historic home. A single condesing unit that could be remotely located would be ideal.

    Anyone done this type of system?


    Thanks

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  • Eugene Silberstein
    Eugene Silberstein Member Posts: 1,380
    Welcome Back Yourself!

    Hey Tom,

    Long time no see on the Wall.

    What capacity are we talking about?

    There are some really nice package chillers on the market... real easy to install... all you have to do is connect the water lines to it...

    I'll get you the information.
  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,393
    May I?

    Not to step in uninvited or anything.

    I use a company called TSI (Division of Rae Corp. in Pryor, Oklahoma) who have both a stock and custom line of chillers starting at 3 tons and going up to over 200. Air and water cooled.

    Drake is another I have seen and there is always Filtrene but are laboratory process types with higher end controls.

    What I have always found necessary is a suction-side buffer tank (suction side of the pump, pumping into the chiller you see) to avoid short cycling in mild load times. Hot gas bypass is a mitzvah. :)

    Largest TSI chiller I ever designed was a custom 46 ton air-cooled beast, all built in to the foundation under an earthen patio. Four compressors/circuits, plate exchangers, hot gas bypass on all. Air cooling was via split coils ducted to vane axial fans with sound attenuators. Practically silent outside. Dampers on the outlets modulated for head pressure control and to maintain a 95 degree outlet temperature.

    In addition, the refrigerant detector operated these fans as a room purge.

    I mention this to illustrate what can be done.
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • TGO_54
    TGO_54 Member Posts: 327
    By all means

    > Not to step in uninvited or anything.

    >

    > I use a

    > company called TSI (Division of Rae Corp. in

    > Pryor, Oklahoma) who have both a stock and custom

    > line of chillers starting at 3 tons and going up

    > to over 200. Air and water cooled.

    >

    > Drake is

    > another I have seen and there is always Filtrene

    > but are laboratory process types with higher end

    > controls.

    >

    > What I have always found necessary

    > is a suction-side buffer tank (suction side of

    > the pump, pumping into the chiller you see) to

    > avoid short cycling in mild load times. Hot gas

    > bypass is a mitzvah. :)

    >

    > Largest TSI chiller I

    > ever designed was a custom 46 ton air-cooled

    > beast, all built in to the foundation under an

    > earthen patio. Four compressors/circuits, plate

    > exchangers, hot gas bypass on all. Air cooling

    > was via split coils ducted to vane axial fans

    > with sound attenuators. Practically silent

    > outside. Dampers on the outlets modulated for

    > head pressure control and to maintain a 95 degree

    > outlet temperature.

    >

    > In addition, the

    > refrigerant detector operated these fans as a

    > room purge.

    >

    > I mention this to illustrate what

    > can be done.





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  • TGO_54
    TGO_54 Member Posts: 327
    By all means

    looking for input from all sources.

    The company I was thinking of is Multi aqua, any experiance with them? I know the potential for a system like this is endless, but we are looking KISS it on this one. An intergtated product line with tech support is the first step.

    I think you and I may have met at Viessamnn RI this summer, were you there for classes?

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  • Troy_3
    Troy_3 Member Posts: 479
    Multi-aqua

    We are in the middle of two jobs using Multi-aqua. One of the houses is 16,000 sq.ft. All of the chillers sit at one side of the house. 12 zones of a/c. We haven't fired it up yet but we all the units are in. Lengthy leed time if they are not in stock. I really like the ability to remote mount the chillers. We almost installed them 100' away behind the pool on the edge of the yard but the Insulpex drove the cost a little to high. The ability to stage and unit placement is really nice. The other company we have used in the past is Unico. We have a couple of their systems working for a couple summers with little issue. Just insulate the crap out of your chilled water lines. Also you get redundancy. If one unit goes down you still have cooling everywhere. We pex the runs and use Caleffi 3way zone valves at the air handlers.
  • TGO_54
    TGO_54 Member Posts: 327
    Thanks for the input

    What are the 3 way zone valves at the coils for? When using several units off a single chiller what is the piping arragemant?



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  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,393
    Tom- Viessmann Classes

    Yes, I was there in August for the Vi-201 and 202 classes. Which one did you take? I met Robert O'Brien there also. I did not recognize the TGO screen-name but would remember your face aside from being admittedly awful with names... :)
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    Tom- 3-Way Valves

    Tom-

    If you use 3-way valves at the coils (anywhere downstream of a pump for that matter but especially at coils) they are diverting valves.

    Water not needed for the load bypasses the coil and goes right to the return. Nowadays in most systems this is discouraged because there is no back-pressure, therefore no change in differential pressure hence no change for a pump VFD to work towards. (Larger systems benefit from VFD operation).

    For this reason, 2-way valves are recommended on most systems, CHW and HW for that matter. The up-side of 3-way valves on small systems is, if there are only a few such coils served, you can save yourself a Delta-P bypass. Just be aware of where the bypassed water goes.

    On smaller systems which tend to be close-coupled, the bypassed water can cause chiller cycling which is more problematic in that you would have a short-cycle timer on the compressors. Three to five minute off-time for oil return and all that. So you need a good buffer tank sized for five minutes worth of flow, rule of thumb.

    You can see the paradox: Large systems lose potential pump energy savings, small systems which tend to be constant-flow lose temperature control rapidly without volume.

    Breaking the load at the chiller level into multiple circuits, using HG bypass, will mitigate the buffer tank size.

    A Random Drive By Thinking,

    Brad

  • TGO_58
    TGO_58 Member Posts: 6
    Viessmann

    Hi Brad

    I was there at the same tme as Bob and I too am not so good with names - not the first time I meet someone anyway.

    Thanks for the input, I spoke to Multi Aqua today and they put me in touch with a local rep and distributer.

    I am also going to look into the other lines you mentioned, any favorites?
  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,393
    Tom- re: Viessmann- Does this Jog your Memory?

    This is a picture taken Saturday night at a friend's farm in RI (Belated New Years Day zydeco dance party and bonfire :)

    Yes, it was Jan. 6th and 48 degrees out. One woman took a dip in the pond..

    That is me in the middle (duh!), my Susan on the right and (God I am terrible with names... the photographer's girlfriend on the left.. )
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • TGO_54
    TGO_54 Member Posts: 327
    Yup

    It was you, I was across the room from you, very ugly with a beard rapidly going gray.

    Don't have a picture handy, but my website is going live very soon and there will be one of me on there.

    Thanks for your input on the chiller, I think it may solve a lot of problems on this job.

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