Trap Repairs

Gasper

We're adding trv's to rads in a high rise in Detroit. They also want the traps repaired where needed. Unfortunatley they wo'nt change therm all at once. Any tips on the best way to check them.

Unknown

Patrick

F&T, Bucket, build some kind of testing station,,,,,Rad Traps,, use "Steamheads" method of "touchy-feely",,,,,Holy Crap that`s hot!!! But seriously,,,,,,, an infra-red would help on these.

Dave

Paul_11

why not use orafices

Heat sensor hand guns work very well and they are cheap now as well?

But I have a question?

Why bother replacing any radiator traps when you could use orafices which last forever, and can be installed piecemeal.
Have you ever tried them?
I don't ever replace traps anymore. All my systems work great.

Respectfully,

Paul B. Shay
pshay@arealgoodplumber.com
LMP 1307
LMFS 654B
OUR MISSION: TO PROVIDE WORLD CLASS PLUMBING, HEATING, AND SPRINKLER SERVICE TO EACH AND EVERY CLIENT WE SERVE, FAR EXCEEDING THEIR HIGHEST EXPECTATIONS!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Gasper

what about opening the outlet side of a few at a time, putting a bucket under them and firing the boiler for a few minutes?

Christian Egli_2

To expand on the topic

It’s well worth the effort opening the F&T and Bucket traps, dumping the bit of dirt that may be jamming them is probably all that’s needed. Also, inside the F&T there will be a thermostatic capsule, here in any case on main ends, it’s probably best to replace the little thing.

For the other traps, going with a hunch on which may have gone bad is perhaps a helpful way. If there is any particular riser giving troubles such as both cooking hot radiators and stone cold ones, then you’ll know exactly were to start.

Opening the traps is a nice easy way to see if there is a major fault, like plugging dirt or a crunched up element.

For knowing if the particular trap has gone flat on a (near zero pressure) home heating system, there is no better method than the test station. This also spares the life of all the good traps.

What brand traps are most popular in Detroit? What’s in your building? How does the condensate return to the boiler.

Patrick, this is something to check. Make sure the returns can let out the system air through big holes - without double trapping attempts at curing faulty radiator traps. Note also, that fixing the radiator traps may make all the overheating problems go away - which may perhaps be the main reason for the desired new radiator valves...



***

To go on with Paul’s thoughts

I know the Navy loves the orifice traps, no doubt, except for dirt, they’re foolproof. The Navy also operates systems on boats that stay on and under pressure for most of the time, and so, air venting is not a particularly big concern for them. In terrestrial home heating, air removal is key... and orifice traps suck at that particular task.

I see a trade off between pesky maintenance of the thermostatic traps and fuel saving due to accelerated venting on start up and better steam control. However, I do not know at all how these two items compare in value.

Paul’s replacements are very interesting. Maybe a combination of Gorton like air vents on the mains and the orifice radiator traps would be ideal (particularly on not so large system). In effect, it would make a two pipe operate like a one pipe system where the condensate returns in pipes that are under a certain pressure. And so, you loose the happy-go-lucky aspects of sizing two pipe systems.

Paul, when you change to orifice traps, can you just change a few here and there, or do you do them all? It’s a fascinating subject.

Furthermore, when two pipe returns remain very plainly open to the atmosphere and thus remove many of the in-the-return tramp steam pressurization hazards, the odds become very good for long trap life, but not eternal like for the orifice trap.

To go on a bit more

It’s exactly the same dilemma air conditioner manufacturers face. Efficient refrigerant vapor cycle are strictly similar to steam vapor cycles, and they both need control devices. AC coils come with either the capillary tube (akin to the orifice trap) or the thermostatic expansion valve (of brotherly nature to thermostatic radiator trap, hehe).

In the cooling world, the capillary tube is the trademark of cheap to buy and cheap (zero cost) to maintain. The trademark of the super SEER units is the... thermostatic expansion valve.

Now what to do?

Matt Undy

The capilary tube is maitnence free until someone overcharges the system or operates it with the worong combination of indoor and outdoor tempuratures and you slug and destroy the compressor.

A TXV does some nice things, also orfices are a bit prone to plugging.

But that's completely off of subject and I think the orfice/thermostatic valve for the radiator is interesting.

Matt

>

> In the cooling world, the

> capillary tube is the trademark of cheap to buy

> and cheap (zero cost) to maintain. The trademark

> of the super SEER units is the... thermostatic

> expansion valve.

>

> Now what to do?

Gasper

trap repair

Thanks for the tips guys!

Christian Egli_2

Huhuhu, nice catch Matt

Note how there’s nothing to fix on the capillary tube itself - maintenance free - ahem, so what if the compressor goes? no one said that was maintenance free... Just trying to add the fine print real quick here.

The orifices on steam can cause the same problems if something goes out of balance and massive steam goes into the returns. Bang bang your heat. All that said, any trapping scheme can give head banging pains. So, I still don’t have a rock solid opinion.

Paul_11

not orafice traps, just orafices on the inlet

Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I did not mean orafice traps. On two pipe steam I only install orafices on the steam inlet. They look like the old pre twist bottle caps in sold copper. You break the union on the steam valve and put them in and close it back up again. It is as easy as that. I don't mess with the traps at all. I find that they almost always fail in the open position. Actually I can't even remember when I last found one failed in the closed position. I buy orafices blank, with no holes, and I drill a small (1/8") hole in them all and install them. If I have a larger radiator I drill 3/16" hole. I try to run the systems at 1 to 1.5 pounds, and see how it all works out. I have one very large building running on 1 pound. Sometimes I have to go back to an apartment or two and drill the hole larger because they are a little colder than other apartments. I charge enough per radiator orafice to be able to go back to many and still make money.
Respectfully,

Paul B. Shay
pshay@arealgoodplumber.com
LMP 1307
LMFS 654B
212-505-1837
917-939-0593
OUR MISSION: TO PROVIDE WORLD CLASS PLUMBING, HEATING, AND SPRINKLER SERVICE TO EACH AND EVERY CLIENT WE SERVE, FAR EXCEEDING THEIR HIGHEST EXPECTATIONS!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul_11

eternal life for orafices

Sorry, I forgot to include this in my last email.

Christian raised the question about orafices lasting eternally. I know you thought I meant orafice traps, and they certianly won't last that long, but I do want to make this point.

When you install orafices on the steam inlet, yes I will say that they have practically eternal life. I mean how long with it take to wear out a 1/16" inch thick piece of copper. Not in my lifetime, but I'm pushing 60.

I have been so successful in keeping steam out of the return lines that I don't always put air vents on the returns. I just leave open pipes. I mean what better and longer lasting vent can you have than an open piece of schedule 40 steel pipe.

Not only does using orafices work better and at a cheaper price than replacing traps, but talk about making your company stand out as a one of a kind company. It's awesome.

About 10 years ago I straighten up a steam system in a building to the tune of about $80,000. Then about 5 years ago they switched maintenance companies. I managed to hold onto the boiler service agreement, but I lost all repair work. I had open pipes as vents in this building and lots of orafices. Over the next two years other plumbers increased the operating pressure which caused steam to come out of these open pipes. So they capped them. The banging came back with very uneven heat. Some of the owners remembered how I had fixed all this and made them hire me back. Of course I had to first do a $1000 survey to see what needed to be done and then I went and fixed it again. Now no one touches any steam pipe in that building without my looking at it first and okaying the work.


Respectfully,

Paul B. Shay
pshay@arealgoodplumber.com
LMP 1307
LMFS 654B
212-505-1837
917-939-0593
OUR MISSION: TO PROVIDE WORLD CLASS PLUMBING, HEATING, AND SPRINKLER SERVICE TO EACH AND EVERY CLIENT WE SERVE, FAR EXCEEDING THEIR HIGHEST EXPECTATIONS!




To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Christian Egli_2

A hot passion for the open holes

This is no mere put-put golf. Like you Paul, I want big live open holes in the atmospheric returns of the two pipe system - well aware of the B dimension, this is no problem at all and nothing but a big relief to air congestion.

Your approach to steam metering makes total sense, it’s nothing steam valves weren’t meant to modulate: Webster, Broomell, Moline and so many others had wonderful two pipe steam valves with a built-in array of metering orifices for the home user to switch at will. 9... 18 holes, whatever, and no reason to yell fore in between either, what fun.

You’re not alone Paul, in spite of the savages who took over after you and capped all the air holes. Long ago, Mr. Mouat of Cleveland was doing precisely everything you suggest. Our very own Gerry Gill of Cleveland is also one such expert, Boilerpro, he too and many others I miss, put orifices in, and myself, I’ve been slowly busy producing new replacement Mouat parts for Gerry. It’s all fascinating.

Here is a photograph of four return mains on a two pipe system at the point where they fall back into the boiler depths. These four brothers had been holding their breath for years. I console myself by thinking the mean people who did that to those poor pipes would likely plug their own nostrils if there was a thread to screw on.

But a cap seems pretty much maintenance free to me...

It’s nice knowing you Paul.

Christian

Paul_11

GREST PICTURE

Thanks for the kind words.
It is truly a lost art and many of us as you mentioned are trying to train the new comers.
I have started teaching a class on the Lost Art of Steam book, week by week, chapter by chapter with my new hires.
They are developing a passion for this stuff.
It is very cool.

That was a great picture, too. Says it all. I copied it into my picture files, I hope you don't mind. Can't wait to show that to my new guys.

Good to know you as well. Will you be in NYC on the 11th?

Respectfully,

Paul B. Shay
pshay@arealgoodplumber.com
LMP 1307
LMFS 654B
OUR MISSION: TO PROVIDE WORLD CLASS PLUMBING, HEATING, AND SPRINKLER SERVICE TO EACH AND EVERY CLIENT WE SERVE, FAR EXCEEDING THEIR HIGHEST EXPECTATIONS!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Christian Egli_2

Find the fault - this was a snow job

Cool, training is the key to the future.

Most won't see the problem with the picture: this plant was swarming with people who should have known, really lots of them and yet... The open holes disappeared when the system was converted from coal to gas, then the coal bin and everything else was smeared with white paint. And finally, in order to get this snow job boiler back to heating (a bit), the pressure was cranked up and up and up. Plain open holes, that's all that needed to be done on this two pipe trapped radiator system; no thermostatic air vents needed nor welcome.

All this is enough to give a massive banging headache. The best cure must be the Big Ugly New York meet - it's just that in my case, the commute is 600 miles. This monthly meet must be one of the best excuses to make the trip... meanwhile, I'll be having a BUD here in Dayton.

Best wishes from far away

Steamhead (in transit)

Blank Orifice Plates

Dear Sir: Where do you get your orifice plates?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"