New Boiler, rushing water sounds

[Deleted User]

As we say in this biz, you didn't get what you didn't pay for, and you didn't get what you thought you were going to get.

What you didn't pay for (hopefully) is an air seperator. Its function, as the name implies, is to remove the free air from the heating fluid.

What you thought you were going to get, and rightlfuly should have gotten, was a noise free, trouble free installation.

What the contractor SHOULD have done would have been to install an air seperator on the boiler outlet ( a less than 50$ item, not including labor) and he SHOULD have put the expansion tank and make up valve on the bottom of alleged air separator (at no additional charge), and he SHOULD have put the circulator down stream of THAT whole affair (again, at no additional charge). If he had, you wouldn't be here asking questions...

Tell your plumbing/heating contractor to come here, and we will tell/show him the correct way to do these things...for FREE!!!

ME

Phil_21

rushing water

I had a new natural gas boiler installed in September of 2006 and have heard rushing water in the pipes. Everyone tells me that it is air, but when I bleed the system, I am not getting any air out except at one of the purge valves. Fact is, I used that particular one so much it had to be repaired. Not sure the name of the part, but it looked like the pin inside of stem of a tire. I push it down and air/water comes out. Like I said, I used this one so much, it wore out that stem and had to replace the stem without draining the boiler. I hear the water when the boiler starts and the pump pushes the water. After a few minutes the sound stops. Also it comes back if the boiler runs constantly, like bringing the temp up rather than maintaining a temp. Once it sits for a few minutes, I'll turn it on and the noise goes away. Does this sound like air? I had the company come out and they said I was doing everything right, it's just going to take time. Coud this be something other than air or is the company giving me the run around? We had to drain the system at Thanksgiving so I've been fighting this for about 6 weeks.

Any advice would be great

Thanks
Phil

Chris_82

yes this sounds like air...

Pictures would help, my idea of purge vlave may not be the same as your installers idea. Then again I have been known to run a seperate air purge line into attics, or the highest point to facilitate air removal. I also spend the extra 70 bucks for uniflanges for every circulator, etc, yes it's air and it needs to be removed.

Phil_21

pictures..hope it works

The purge valves are a little hard to make out, it looks like the stem of a tire, made of metal with the pin inside to depress to release air and water

Weezbo

That is cool Mark *~/:)

Somewhat like sitting down to a plate of Beans while looking at a picture of Your favorite BBQ Ribs:)

Chris_82

Argghh...

For the time being the only thing I can say is your going to have to let a lot of water/air out of those vents under the baseboard covers. Mark has added a few things that should have been there, that are missing, not even subject to any debate...they should be there to get air out of your system...I also don't see a gas shutoff near your boiler, at this point if I was inspecting your home I would simply walk outside and shutoff your gas with a lock. Additionally an expansion tank HAS to be installed and I don't see a fill valve, pressure reducing type anywhere...unless of course you did this yourself and you are an accountant, you should not feel proud...

Phil_20

Does any one else see this

I find it hard to believe an actual contractor installed this boiler. Whoever it was should not be. The fuel line is obviously not up to snuff. A flexible "appliance connector" is not proper. These are sold for movable appliances and are not proper for fixed appliances (furn. DHW tanks.) Also no purge taps installed to eliminate air from series piping that is common place on baseboard (I assume). No ammount of air bleeding will eliminate the air from the up and down piping no matter how much you do. Also as the water heats the air will effervess out of the water a bit this is what the air eliminator previously mentioned is for. Some local plumbing codes also require a backflow preventer. I hope you did not pay a lot for this boiler. If you didn't then you got what you payed for. If you did you have a legitimate gripe. This install looks like a pipe and run. This quality of work gives manufacturers a bad name however the boilers job is to heat water that is it!

Phil_21

Thanks....where do I go from here

I really appreciate all of your expertise. Not to defend the installer, trust me, I definitely would not do that, but the expansion tank was on the ceiling on the old one, maybe why this is why he left it there. As far as everything else is concerned, I am going to get another company out to look at your advice. I figured it wasn't done right when the company was done in one afternoon. I think once we had heat, they figured they did their jobs. A few questions for you professionals:
1. What items are not there that should be there?
2. A very rough estimate, how much would this probably cost?
3. Am I harming my boiler running it this way? Fortunately we've had a mild winter and it hasn't done much running and I keep the stats no higher than 64
4.What else should I do? I've read your replys, but it really doesn't make much sense to me, if you were in my position, what would you have done?

ScottMP

Philip

Honestly if you got a few bids this was the low bidder correct ? If not you thought you where hiring a firm that new what to do. You did not get that.

There are basics priciples here that where not followed and if a gas permit was pulled, I CAN NOT belive an inspector would have allowed that install.

I am not sure if calling this company back would help as this must be there normal quality of work. You could try. Maybe the owner would come out and be SHOCKED at what his crew did. Maybe !

What you recieved was what I refered to as a slash and hack job. Low price, run in quick, do as little work as possible and get out. If that is Not what was done then ignorance of standard piping practice is the only excuse.

If the Installation instructions where left on the job for you ( as they should have been and not used as a knee pad for the installer ) Look at the intructions. They will show you what should have been done. I think you said the installation was fairly new ? There should be NO LEAKING around the circulator as you have !

I do not mean to sound abusive here Philip but it makes me MAD that you recieved this type of an install.

Scott


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ScottMP

Philip

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jp_2

troubling vent connection

looks to me like that top connection is about to leak or come part.

Phil_21

correct

They were the lowest bidder, was it that tough to figure out. To be honest with you, I raised all types of heck with the company and got the owner to my house and he's the one that actually got it going. The pump doesn't leak, he did that while bleeding it from there, again very cheaply done. I am having another company come over and fix it. I realize it will cost more, but I have learned not to go with the lowest bidder. A lesson learned. I'm thinking this company doesn't even service and install boilers, my guess is they knew they were screwing us over, I can't even get them to return my calls....

Thank you again and don't apologize for being harsh
Phillip

CC.Rob_2

suggestions

Homeowner here. My thoughts.

1) you have a real bad install here. Likely code violations, install manual not followed, etc.

2) I suggest first contacting your local plumbing inspector or whoever has jurisdiction over heating in your town. (also known as the AHJ -- Authority Having Jurisdiction.) See if the proper permits were obtained. Get them over there for a visual. Take LOTS of pictures BEFORE anything is done to change the system. Be forewarned that if the inspector sees sufficient problems, it's also possible he shuts down the boiler and hangs a big red tag on it. Got an alternate heat source?

3) Get after the installer. Tell him you have the authorities involved, and there are multiple problems. Hint that you may pursue legal action because (if the inspection warrants) the installer has created hazards to life and property. If the inspector shuts down your boiler, then you might also indicate that if your pipes freeze and water damage in the house occurs, then you will most definitely be seeking a legal remedy. [And I say this having never litigated anything in my life. But a line has been crossed here. Stand up for yourself.]

4) If this is the typical quality of work of this company, then IMHO there is no way they will make it right. They lack the knowledge and skills. Find someone else. Meanwhile, use the above suggestions to recoup as much of the money you gave to this hack as possible.

Good luck.

Unknown

that's another

That's looks like another furance guy installation... Around my part, the plumbing inpectors doesn't know dilly about boiler installations, all they want is the bfv on supply... Better off calling a real boiler pro.

Chris_82

It's not a bout dilly , silly...

The pluming inspectors have their hands tied, there are things we would like to say, there are things we want to say, and there are things we have learned not to say. ME has some excellent advice about wholsale'rs selling only to licenced individuals, this once was the case, I can remember very well, being well dressed and the man behind the counter saying they sell to the trade only. This worked right up untill wholesales started getting sued for discrimination. So for an inspector homeowner relationship...by law there is none! And this is very frustrating when a permit has not been pulled, and is problamatic when substandard work is noticed and the permit puller is non-responsive...the inspector can not go to the homeowner, again by law. The best they can do is trump up some health violation and try to get other individuals into the home, under some very strict, and highly specific conditions and support others as a witness.